E85 is in Va Beach for the PUBLIC !!!
03-16-2009, 09:16 AM
#61
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Re: E85 is in Va Beach for the PUBLIC !!!
The corrosion is there, but it's not as serious as the warnings lead you to believe
...
Any car that isn't taken care of falls apart after 10 years anyways.
Yes you're dumping more fuel, and yes it's a richer mixture - but when you're getting the effect of $10/gal gas for $1.70/gal - does it really matter that you're using 20-30% more? Hell no, you still come out WAY ahead. And you can trust your O2 sensor better when you aren't running lead through it as an added bonus.
...
Any car that isn't taken care of falls apart after 10 years anyways.
Yes you're dumping more fuel, and yes it's a richer mixture - but when you're getting the effect of $10/gal gas for $1.70/gal - does it really matter that you're using 20-30% more? Hell no, you still come out WAY ahead. And you can trust your O2 sensor better when you aren't running lead through it as an added bonus.
I imagine e70 lets you run a bit leaner. I'll take your word for it that 12:1 got you close to 1 lambda. Stoich shouldn't be max power anyways though, you want richer (unless using ethanol is so different that things like 15% of the fuel depositing on the cylinder walls and not being part of the charge aren't happening).
On the first snippet that I quoted - that was going to be my next post, how long a period are we talking about here. As far as I'm concerned, a hose with a 10 year service life is no good. Yeah, sure, e10 is fine for cars for a few years, but where the hell does the government get off mandating something that severly reduces the life of the parts in my car (I'm used to fuel lines lasting decades upon decades).
On the 2nd - is race gas up to $10/gal? The last time I had a use for it was before the gas price craziness started, and it was ~$5/gal.
O2 sensors? We don't need no stikin' O2 sensors. The only car that I've worked on that came with O2 sensors (happens to be my personal car, as opposed to other peoples') lost them when I modded it. 100LL is ~$3.50/gal here...has got me thinking....
03-16-2009, 02:15 PM
#62
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Re: E85 is in Va Beach for the PUBLIC !!!
HighPSi guy,
I'm trying to figure out your argument of different stoichiometric scales among different fuels?
My understanding is stoich is the ratio to the balance of the equation. For example, since stoich for standard gas is 14.7:1, a ratio, or division that you need 14.7x more mass of oxygen, than mass of gasoline. This is why when you have a higher ratio (too much air) its considered lean, too much fuel (lower number) its rich. Lamda is how far from a fuels stoichiometric point a mixture is.
When you say the ratio for E85 is richer, thats false (I think you meant its lower), as stoich for E85 is 8.5:1 . Yes, if a gasoline engine ran at 8.5:1, it would be considered rich. Stoich is only effective on obtaining the most power with a balanced equation.
The fact of the matter, what really provides fuel mileage, is the energy stored in the fuel or BTU's. In a 100% efficient system, this is the amount of energy that can be harnessed. A gallon of gasoline has approx 125,000 BTU's where a gallon of Ethanol has 76,000 or only 60% as much ( Citation )
Since ethanol has a higher octane rating, it is better for hi-perf engines. This being said, since it has lower energy, this is why you need more of it.
The problems with ethanol toted by a lot of opposition is that its not really 'green'. Some benefits however;
1.) Keeps us less depended on foreign countries/Keeps money within the states.
2.) For every bushel (56lbs) of corn used, you get about 2.74 gallons of ethanol. On top of this, you also get 26 lbs of distiller grains which are great for livestock feed.
3.) It is a renewable resource and can be made from more things than just corn. The amulases used to break down the starches can geared towards other products including wheat, grass, etc. Corn just happens to be readily available and easy to handle.
marlin, I think you've been fed some false/biased information. Most new rubbers (i'd say anything early 90's on up) are OK with ethanol. The huge problem however with it however, has already been mentioned. It readily absorbs water, which is a huge problem for boaters especially when they sit dormant over the winters.
I'm trying to figure out your argument of different stoichiometric scales among different fuels?
My understanding is stoich is the ratio to the balance of the equation. For example, since stoich for standard gas is 14.7:1, a ratio, or division that you need 14.7x more mass of oxygen, than mass of gasoline. This is why when you have a higher ratio (too much air) its considered lean, too much fuel (lower number) its rich. Lamda is how far from a fuels stoichiometric point a mixture is.
When you say the ratio for E85 is richer, thats false (I think you meant its lower), as stoich for E85 is 8.5:1 . Yes, if a gasoline engine ran at 8.5:1, it would be considered rich. Stoich is only effective on obtaining the most power with a balanced equation.
The fact of the matter, what really provides fuel mileage, is the energy stored in the fuel or BTU's. In a 100% efficient system, this is the amount of energy that can be harnessed. A gallon of gasoline has approx 125,000 BTU's where a gallon of Ethanol has 76,000 or only 60% as much ( Citation )
Since ethanol has a higher octane rating, it is better for hi-perf engines. This being said, since it has lower energy, this is why you need more of it.
The problems with ethanol toted by a lot of opposition is that its not really 'green'. Some benefits however;
1.) Keeps us less depended on foreign countries/Keeps money within the states.
2.) For every bushel (56lbs) of corn used, you get about 2.74 gallons of ethanol. On top of this, you also get 26 lbs of distiller grains which are great for livestock feed.
3.) It is a renewable resource and can be made from more things than just corn. The amulases used to break down the starches can geared towards other products including wheat, grass, etc. Corn just happens to be readily available and easy to handle.
marlin, I think you've been fed some false/biased information. Most new rubbers (i'd say anything early 90's on up) are OK with ethanol. The huge problem however with it however, has already been mentioned. It readily absorbs water, which is a huge problem for boaters especially when they sit dormant over the winters.
What I was saying was that AFR is calculated off lambda and tehre are different scales depending on fuel used. If you read ethanol on a gasoline scale then stoick will still read 14.7. It's not what the AFR really is, but it's what you're seeing because you're using the gasoline scaling.
03-16-2009, 02:26 PM
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Re: E85 is in Va Beach for the PUBLIC !!!
RandomTask, I know they tell you that newer rubbers are ok with e10, my sources tell me that studies conducting over long periods of time find that they aren't. They're much more resilient than the old rubber, but still won't last as long were we to use MTBE or just unoxygenated. Bump it up to 85% and now they don't last nearly as wrong as with pure gas. This is what the people who work for the companies have told me.
The livestock feed is a false benefit, as using food for fuel has greatly increased the cost of livestock feed.
The livestock feed is a false benefit, as using food for fuel has greatly increased the cost of livestock feed.
Last edited by marlinspike; 03-16-2009 at 02:28 PM.
03-16-2009, 03:49 PM
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Re: E85 is in Va Beach for the PUBLIC !!!
RandomTask, I know they tell you that newer rubbers are ok with e10, my sources tell me that studies conducting over long periods of time find that they aren't. They're much more resilient than the old rubber, but still won't last as long were we to use MTBE or just unoxygenated. Bump it up to 85% and now they don't last nearly as wrong as with pure gas. This is what the people who work for the companies have told me.
The livestock feed is a false benefit, as using food for fuel has greatly increased the cost of livestock feed.
The livestock feed is a false benefit, as using food for fuel has greatly increased the cost of livestock feed.
Like I said earlier, in the early/mid 90's, cars were switched over to Viton (not just the old school rubber), which doesn't get eaten up. Yes, older cars will have a problem switching to E10.
The effects of E10 on the fuel system, if any are present, are so negligible its asinine. The only problem you have is if you have a lot of built up corrosion that gasoline can cause, inside your tank, E10 can release this corrosion and have it clog your fuel filter.
And second, negative. First, breaking it down to its simplest pieces, a single kernel of corn consist of the germ and the endosperm. (couple of other, non important parts) After it gets ground up into flour, an alpha-amylase is used to break down the starches in the endosperm into complex sugars. A gluco-amylase is then used to break down those complex sugars into simple sugars which the yeast can use to make the alcohol. That being said, the germ is fairly useless in the process and comes out at the end into the distillers grains (either WDDGS or DDGS)
A.) Pound for pound its higher in protein - thus the farmers like it more.
B.) It makes feed taste better to cows, they are more attracted to it as it has a 'sweet' taste.
C.) Quick math - Currently the US produces 6.5 billions gallons of ethanol yearly. . . It takes 56 lbs of corn to make 2.7/2.8 gallons. Of that, you get back about 26 lbs of feed. The market gets so flooded with the feed its rediculous. . . so no, its not creating a shortage of corn for cattle feed.
Just as an FYI, I used to work for an ethanol plant design company. . .
03-16-2009, 04:09 PM
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Re: E85 is in Va Beach for the PUBLIC !!!
Economists agree that the increased use of ethanol has raised the price of corn.
BTW, you'll note that studies funded by the ethanol industry to compare the materials compatibility to that of gasoline uses SAE J1682 fuel surrogate, which is the fuel surrogate that is most damaging to materials used in cars, and still ethanol comes out behind (in their own tests) but then at the end say it isn't by enough to warrant not using ethanol. Those same studies have found e20 to be more harmful than e10, so imagine e85 in a car not designed with e85 in mind.
Last edited by marlinspike; 03-16-2009 at 04:33 PM.
03-16-2009, 04:35 PM
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Re: E85 is in Va Beach for the PUBLIC !!!
Im new to this whole ethanol thing, but if i were to have a modified car, and a tuning system where i could switch back and forth between a 93 octane tune and an ethanol tune, would this be a good idea to gain some power?
03-16-2009, 05:10 PM
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Re: E85 is in Va Beach for the PUBLIC !!!
As a general rule though, remember not to mix the fuels. Empty one to fill with the other. Keeps the car running properly.
Just switching fuel alone and no other changes usually nets 25whp minimum gain on turbo cars. 30+whp gain just from fuel switch alone is not uncommon at all.
03-16-2009, 06:42 PM
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Re: E85 is in Va Beach for the PUBLIC !!!
YES!
As a general rule though, remember not to mix the fuels. Empty one to fill with the other. Keeps the car running properly.
Just switching fuel alone and no other changes usually nets 25whp minimum gain on turbo cars. 30+whp gain just from fuel switch alone is not uncommon at all.
As a general rule though, remember not to mix the fuels. Empty one to fill with the other. Keeps the car running properly.
Just switching fuel alone and no other changes usually nets 25whp minimum gain on turbo cars. 30+whp gain just from fuel switch alone is not uncommon at all.
03-17-2009, 04:37 PM
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