Just like to share why my engine series is awesome..
Thread Starter
BOOST!
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 951
Likes: 0
From: Blacksburg, VA
Just like to share why my engine series is awesome..
Ok,
I am just really proud of the engine that comes in Ford Probe GT's 1993-1997, which is also used in the Mazda MX-6, 626, Millenia, and others.
The american version, the KLDE(aka the KL03) is a 2.5 L V6, makes about 139 Whp on 9.2:1 compression. Around 4500-6500 rpms, they are near or at 100% volumetric efficiency.
The engine comes with a forged crank, split block, oil squirters, very small rod ratio, and plugged oil tap on the front of the block. All of these things just scream "BOOST!"
On the majority of boosted setups, with proper sized turbo, massive gains can be seen.
Most Probe owners are just poor college kids and don't go all out on their setups. This translates into making your own piping(because only one guy sells a kit and it requires a lot of fabrication and welding.) For fuel options, 95% of them just bolt on a 12:1 FMU and walbro 255 fuel pump. Stock injectors, ecu, and everything else. S-AFC's don't work with our ecu because it goes into open loop over 50% throttle.
That being said, when Probe guys turbo their engines(which usually have a few mods of course, like bored throttlebody and underdrive pulley), they have no means of tuning, and most don't dyno-tune; they only watch their FP gauges and A/F gauges hoping to make it run right.
With all those disadvantages, time and time again, with 7-8 psi, whp is DOUBLED. Yes, from 139 whp to 280whp is very common on 7psi. Kinda scary eh? By adding about 50% more air, we're somehow doubling our power; the joy of this beautiful Mazda engine!
Ok,
So I'm using the JDM version (KLZE) of this engine for my turbo setup. What does that mean? Well, 10:1 compression instead of 9.2:1, square ports on the heads and intake manifold for much more flow, and more agressive cams. This raises the stock WHP number from 139 to about 168 whp.
Now, I didn't want to rely on an FMU, I just hate their lack of accuracy, so I'm going with a Simple Digital Systems Stand alone engine management systems. It is a full distributorless ignition and fuel control setup. The stock, restrice vane air flow meter is replaced with a MAP sensor, the distributor is replaced with 3 coil packs, and everything is adjustable with a hand-held controller.
On top of that, rather than spending all my time on a dyno, I bought a wideband o2 meter(like Jeff's) to monitor the ratio's and to give me something to actually go by besides white plugs or fuel dripping from the exhaust. I'm also in the process of modifying a set of Nissan 370cc sidefeed injectors(what fits under my intake manifold), which is 150cc's more than stock, or 60% more.
When I'm done, I plan for 7-8 psi on this engine(which has never been done on the JDM version). I'm hoping for ever 300 to the wheels with tuning, and there has only been one probe to do that, and he had it stroked to 2.7 L along with forged internals and a lot of other stuff(made 315 whp).
But I'm called crazy for doing it to the higher compression engine, as it's harder to tune and not blow up. So wish me lots of luck over the next few weeks as I get things bolted up. When the stand alone gets here in early June, I'll have a LOT of shit to mess around with, so I might need some help from time to time.
Thanks, I just had to share. I love my engine and hope it works out to surprise everyone this summer.
Nick (bored at home dieing to get back to B'Burg next week!)
I am just really proud of the engine that comes in Ford Probe GT's 1993-1997, which is also used in the Mazda MX-6, 626, Millenia, and others.
The american version, the KLDE(aka the KL03) is a 2.5 L V6, makes about 139 Whp on 9.2:1 compression. Around 4500-6500 rpms, they are near or at 100% volumetric efficiency.
The engine comes with a forged crank, split block, oil squirters, very small rod ratio, and plugged oil tap on the front of the block. All of these things just scream "BOOST!"
On the majority of boosted setups, with proper sized turbo, massive gains can be seen.
Most Probe owners are just poor college kids and don't go all out on their setups. This translates into making your own piping(because only one guy sells a kit and it requires a lot of fabrication and welding.) For fuel options, 95% of them just bolt on a 12:1 FMU and walbro 255 fuel pump. Stock injectors, ecu, and everything else. S-AFC's don't work with our ecu because it goes into open loop over 50% throttle.
That being said, when Probe guys turbo their engines(which usually have a few mods of course, like bored throttlebody and underdrive pulley), they have no means of tuning, and most don't dyno-tune; they only watch their FP gauges and A/F gauges hoping to make it run right.
With all those disadvantages, time and time again, with 7-8 psi, whp is DOUBLED. Yes, from 139 whp to 280whp is very common on 7psi. Kinda scary eh? By adding about 50% more air, we're somehow doubling our power; the joy of this beautiful Mazda engine!
Ok,
So I'm using the JDM version (KLZE) of this engine for my turbo setup. What does that mean? Well, 10:1 compression instead of 9.2:1, square ports on the heads and intake manifold for much more flow, and more agressive cams. This raises the stock WHP number from 139 to about 168 whp.
Now, I didn't want to rely on an FMU, I just hate their lack of accuracy, so I'm going with a Simple Digital Systems Stand alone engine management systems. It is a full distributorless ignition and fuel control setup. The stock, restrice vane air flow meter is replaced with a MAP sensor, the distributor is replaced with 3 coil packs, and everything is adjustable with a hand-held controller.
On top of that, rather than spending all my time on a dyno, I bought a wideband o2 meter(like Jeff's) to monitor the ratio's and to give me something to actually go by besides white plugs or fuel dripping from the exhaust. I'm also in the process of modifying a set of Nissan 370cc sidefeed injectors(what fits under my intake manifold), which is 150cc's more than stock, or 60% more.
When I'm done, I plan for 7-8 psi on this engine(which has never been done on the JDM version). I'm hoping for ever 300 to the wheels with tuning, and there has only been one probe to do that, and he had it stroked to 2.7 L along with forged internals and a lot of other stuff(made 315 whp).
But I'm called crazy for doing it to the higher compression engine, as it's harder to tune and not blow up. So wish me lots of luck over the next few weeks as I get things bolted up. When the stand alone gets here in early June, I'll have a LOT of shit to mess around with, so I might need some help from time to time.
Thanks, I just had to share. I love my engine and hope it works out to surprise everyone this summer.
Nick (bored at home dieing to get back to B'Burg next week!)
Last edited by Goofynick6; May 11, 2003 at 05:58 AM.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 378
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Nick,
Hopefully the SDS engine management will allow for you to adjust ignition timing maps as well as fuel. From what I can see, if you're aiming for 300whp on an engine with a 10:1 ratio, you will definitely need to retard the ignition timing several degrees relative to your stock maps.
Being that the axis of your ignition and fuel maps are probably MAP (load) and RPM, I would connect your Tech Edge WB unit to the ECU so that it captures the MAP and RPM signal, as well as throttle position (not as important).
Using a palm-pilot, monitor & log all of these parameters (including lamda)... At this point, you will need to adjust your fuel maps according to the RPM, MAP, and lamda values recorded on the palm pilot... For instance, if at 5000 rpm & 0.5bar it reports that the fuel is too rich, then find the corresponding value on the SDS system and lean it out.
Using this method you should be able to start logging on the palm, then drive around town for 5 minutes performing a mix of part throttle pulls, WOT pulls at different RPM's and MAPs. When you're done you will have a large range of lamda corrections to change on the SDS.
...Another thing that took me a while to figure out is what A/F ratio to tune the engine to. Most people say to tune a turbo setup between 11.5:1 and 12.5:1...Sport Compact Car, on the other hand, recommended tuning to 13.5:1 which I think is completely stupid for a street setup (or even drag).
When trying to achieve the ratio you want (11.8:1 is a good starting point for the street), you may run into detonation. If you cannot reach the desired AFR's, try retarding the timing and try again. For example...We spent many hours tuning Ryans supercharged mustang, however we could only get the AFR's to around 10.5:1 in the top-end without hearing detonation. Unfortunately he doesn't have a means of retarding timing under boost, so we were forced to leave the engine running rich.
So...to sum it up, I'd search around for some conservative values to use for your timing maps, being sure not to have the top-end and peak-torque region too far advanced (engines detonate most at their peak torque RPM). Once you have a decent ignition map, hook up the wideband and start tuning the fuel. Start with a low level of boost and work your way up...If you can sustain a good AFR and low amount of knock at one boost level, then turn it up a couple psi and tune some more...
Anyway...I need to run...let me know if you need anymore help...
Jeff
Hopefully the SDS engine management will allow for you to adjust ignition timing maps as well as fuel. From what I can see, if you're aiming for 300whp on an engine with a 10:1 ratio, you will definitely need to retard the ignition timing several degrees relative to your stock maps.
Being that the axis of your ignition and fuel maps are probably MAP (load) and RPM, I would connect your Tech Edge WB unit to the ECU so that it captures the MAP and RPM signal, as well as throttle position (not as important).
Using a palm-pilot, monitor & log all of these parameters (including lamda)... At this point, you will need to adjust your fuel maps according to the RPM, MAP, and lamda values recorded on the palm pilot... For instance, if at 5000 rpm & 0.5bar it reports that the fuel is too rich, then find the corresponding value on the SDS system and lean it out.
Using this method you should be able to start logging on the palm, then drive around town for 5 minutes performing a mix of part throttle pulls, WOT pulls at different RPM's and MAPs. When you're done you will have a large range of lamda corrections to change on the SDS.
...Another thing that took me a while to figure out is what A/F ratio to tune the engine to. Most people say to tune a turbo setup between 11.5:1 and 12.5:1...Sport Compact Car, on the other hand, recommended tuning to 13.5:1 which I think is completely stupid for a street setup (or even drag).
When trying to achieve the ratio you want (11.8:1 is a good starting point for the street), you may run into detonation. If you cannot reach the desired AFR's, try retarding the timing and try again. For example...We spent many hours tuning Ryans supercharged mustang, however we could only get the AFR's to around 10.5:1 in the top-end without hearing detonation. Unfortunately he doesn't have a means of retarding timing under boost, so we were forced to leave the engine running rich.
So...to sum it up, I'd search around for some conservative values to use for your timing maps, being sure not to have the top-end and peak-torque region too far advanced (engines detonate most at their peak torque RPM). Once you have a decent ignition map, hook up the wideband and start tuning the fuel. Start with a low level of boost and work your way up...If you can sustain a good AFR and low amount of knock at one boost level, then turn it up a couple psi and tune some more...
Anyway...I need to run...let me know if you need anymore help...
Jeff
Thread Starter
BOOST!
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 951
Likes: 0
From: Blacksburg, VA
Jeff,
Thanks for the great post. The SDS comes preprogrammed with set values that are based on your setup, boost level, injectors..etc.
However, all ignition and fuel are controllable, so I can just modify the base map that comes with it. I'll have to have you help me out with hooking the WB into the SDS, and learning how to read it in my palm pilot, but it should be interesting/fun doing it.
I'm still trying to locate a wideband sensor, the cheapest I've come across is $202 from a guy on ebay who sells them.
Nick
Thanks for the great post. The SDS comes preprogrammed with set values that are based on your setup, boost level, injectors..etc.
However, all ignition and fuel are controllable, so I can just modify the base map that comes with it. I'll have to have you help me out with hooking the WB into the SDS, and learning how to read it in my palm pilot, but it should be interesting/fun doing it.
I'm still trying to locate a wideband sensor, the cheapest I've come across is $202 from a guy on ebay who sells them.
Nick
Thread Starter
BOOST!
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 951
Likes: 0
From: Blacksburg, VA
Thanks,
I wasn't sure if this was really an appropriate topic; if people would think it was stupid or maybe learn some new info.
I have a lot of people ask me about my engine, and they are always like "Hmm..I really don't know much about them" or, "Never heard of that engine, what is it?" etc. So, since I'm bored and away from home missing my ride I thought I'd get it out of my system. If any of you would like to know any specific detail, just ask; after owning the car for about 7 years or more now I know more than I should about it..haha.
Nick
I wasn't sure if this was really an appropriate topic; if people would think it was stupid or maybe learn some new info.
I have a lot of people ask me about my engine, and they are always like "Hmm..I really don't know much about them" or, "Never heard of that engine, what is it?" etc. So, since I'm bored and away from home missing my ride I thought I'd get it out of my system. If any of you would like to know any specific detail, just ask; after owning the car for about 7 years or more now I know more than I should about it..haha.
Nick
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2
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From: c-burg
Nick your racing seats are really uncomfortable and next time you come to wes' house with 3 hot women bring them inside. Sounds like wes garage will have a new tornado come through with every part and tool know to man in there. well i want is a ride in the car this time after it is ready. last time you took derek but not me. oh well, cant wait to see it done.
Joey
Joey