getfast

Both of these things are a legitimately bad idea and potentially quite unsafe.

Someone just out of an intermediate level, instructed, passing only on the straights run group IS NOT ready for open passing.

Furthermore all that race start practice stuff is a bad idea without full driver gear and a logbooked racecar, considering that the most dangerous part of any race... is the start.

My opinion...

wneal

Feel free to call me so you can get all the facts on how we run this. It has proven to be a very safe venue time and time again with no issues at all and our drivers are better for it.
Danny would be be glad to discuss this as well.

It is best to attend someone's event before criticizing it, especially on an open forum and especially when not having all the information, or no information. Something I would not do in any case, even after attending an event. I may not agree with how some events are run but you will not find a post from me on any forum, at any time, criticizing an event promoter for how they run things, and I still run with quite a few of them. In your own quote, it says the ADVANCED DRIVERS have open passing.

You have no idea how much emphasis we place on safety nor how we monitor it. There has to be a point where someone advances and we allow it in a logical, safe manner. It works very well and we will continue with it. 10/10ths was built in total with the belief of teaching drivers the safe way to advance their skills and at some point you have to give them a venue where they can actually practice certain skills. There is a reason I have so many repeat drivers and the list is growing.

As I stated before, I believe in safe events, learning the skill in a logical manner and enjoying the great friendships I have made because of this sport. There is nothing more to it for me.

Cheers and stay safe on track

wneal

Thank You !!

getfast

First off, please don't be upset when you come here to promote your unfamiliar once a year event for free and the locals - who are used to awesome events with a variety of known organizations every few weeks for 10 months out of each year - question it.

Secondly, I would - and will if necessary - tell Danny the exact same thing, regardless of how much I like and respect the man. I think Danny has been to enough of my stuff to know how seriously I take safety, and the ladder system in general, and what you described above DOES NOT fit that mold. Maybe it's a regional thing, but I'd consider myself fully qualified to comment on what the norm is around here, and what isn't. Specifically that what you described - TO ME - sounds potentially dangerous. Two items in particular:

1) If you're putting advanced HPDE drivers out there with full open passing in corners, it's an accident waiting to happen. Specifically for your guy who just got promoted to that group because he now has to deal with two new things simultaneously, both of which involve much more track awareness than he's used to, and he must do so without assistance from an instructor. (Note: I agree that instructor groups should be open passing, like we do with TrackDaze... just not advanced groups, those should be pass anywhere with a point.)

2) Regarding the race simulation stuff, if you're just running drills at low speed well I do understand the goals and desires, the exercises themselves are usually fantastic and very worthwhile, and other groups do the same thing with street cars (BMWCCA is the first one that comes to mind.) However I came up through the system believing differently, that if you want to "practice" racing or work on racecraft, you do it in a RACE car with RACING equipment (suit, H&N, fire bottle, etc.) Because things go wrong much more quickly in those scenarios. Maybe that's just me... but not coincidentally that's also how it's done in the two largest amateur sports car race providers in the country - SCCA and NASA.

That said, I agree that I perhaps criticized your organization prematurely and I do apologize for that. Your organization may be fantastic, I have no idea (chances are strong that it is, if Danny is involved.) Those two items just raised red flags for me. All your talk about safety is good but having been in your position hundreds of times over the last ~13 years I can tell you that actions absolutely speak louder than words. So don't just tell us it's safe, show us how and why it is... I'll be contacting you offline about possibly attending.

RAFTRACER

Jon,

Bill and I appreciate and respect your concerns for safety @ others track day venues, but I assure you that 10/10ths takes safety aspects foremost into consideration as Bill the "promoter" is not just that, but also a full time fireman and owner of a succesful safety related buisness. Bill knows more about safety than most period and he extends his knowledge enthusiastically into his events and is ultimately concerned with the well being of the participants , track workers , personnel and spectators/by-standers. We as a group do not feel that we take unnesccesary risk or put our participants in danger and that is quite evident by our record to date.

I think there are some misconceptions of how things are run at our events with respect to the groupings, rights/priviledges and progression through our system. First off the green group is just that..beginners just learning to be able to run on track with instructors eventually being allowed to pass only on straightaways with point-byes. These green students also must attend classroom meetings twice a day primarily with safety aspects being promoted as the main agenda as well as proper track etiquette and correct track lines. These students as with many other groups will not be allowed to run solo or progress to the next level without the consent of their instructor which typically doesn't happen any to early in the participants eyes. They will first be allowed to run solo in the green group and then will require another check ride to be promoted to the intermediate or yellow group. Some chose to stay in the green group for their own reasons even if capable of moving up, but to each their own.

The yellow group and/or intermediate group runs somewhat differently than other groups in the fact that they have the liberties to pass anywhere on track with a point-by. We expect that these intermediate participants are able to solo and have, but they may request and instructor and we may require one of them if they are new to 10/10ths Motorsports to check their skill set and make sure they possess the required abilities. Even though these participants are able to pass anywhere on track , it is still up to the person being passed to allow the pass creating mutual awareness of both parties. This helps build the skill set of "situational awareness" that is required to be in open passing sessions either in our red group, TT or race groups. We do not allow trains and if there are found to be any trains any of the instructors or track personnel that are witness to trains are capable of black flagging a car that is creating this. We promote not only paying attention to what is in front of you , but equally what is behind you. We encourage participants to relax and to pay attention to the mirrors routinely thus allowing less frustration on the particpants part creating great sportsmanship. We demand the upmost sportsmanship in all of our groups. Again, yellow or intermediate students are not allowed to progress to the red group without a check ride by one of our senior instructors. This group meets the final goals of some and they will remain this group satisfied..

The advanced group, or red group seems to be the one of most concern and to date has been the least problematic. We give these particpants the most liberties and freedoms that you will see at any track venue......and we make sure that the red group particpants know just that...that it is a liberty not a right, and is not afforded at most other venues and that it only takes one bad apple to spoil it. We also stress that this is not a competition and that no one can WIN at an HPDE, but you sure can lose. Particpants are only allowed to enter the red group if they possess a current race or TT license from an accredited sanctioning body (with proof) or have climbed our ladder. In addition to that this year we will be implementing check rides by senior instructors for ANY new red group participant, either new to the group, or a new participant from the yellow group , in the red group session. Real time analysis of skill sets per say. Most of the particpants in this group are racers ,TTer's or aspiring to be one of them. Right now red group safety preparations are no different than NASA TT, but Bill and I are continually trying to implement more safety requirements for the drivers and the cars . IMHO opinion all HPDE people (regardless of group) ought to have seats, belts, firesuits, gloves, head and neck restraints, fire system ( at least extinguisher) and rollcages but some HPDE'ers are stubborn and fools. If you use any of these ONCE they have paid for themselves in spades, but hopefully they are the biggest waste of money that you spend (meaning that they have not been used). Most of the cars in our red group are caged race cars with log books or are capable to pass race inspection....others are TT prepped. Passing in this group is obviously anywhere with no point-bys, but again this is not a race and look harshly upon low percentage passes and reckless behavior. We do not promote dive bombing and have talked to some about this . What we do want is to have a safe environment where partipcants can learn race craft type skills without the pressure of competition, and believe that we have created just that. "Situational awareness" has created a very safe atmosphere to this point within this group and this group has less "incidents" than any of the other groups, even though they have all the freedoms in the world. The practice simulation race starts do not always occur at every event and we look at who the particpants are and how the day is going before we decide to do one. Not every red group entrant partipates in these and we scrutinize who we will allow to particpate. It is a simulation start , two by two taking a green flag , but the grid is more loosely formed by having several car lengths between each row and the grid being set from fastest to slowest. Again we emphasize at the simulation start meeting that this is NOT A RACE, but a simulation to get the partipcants the "feel" of what taking a green flag is like, allowing people to get a pseudo experience to decide if racing is what they want to do . This practice has NEVER resulted in an accident or contact between cars and I accredit that to the amount of talent and awareness that our partipcants have. After the first braking zone/ corner this just turns into a regular red group session . There is no race, just the thrill and experience of taking a green flag. Majoritily most practice start particpants have race start experience anyhow. The red group being open passing allows for racers and TT'ers to test without the hassle of point-by's being made by people that aren't paying attention. A great freedom and liberty as long as all play by the rules and all are paying attention to what is in front of them...and what is behind them. We have NO intermediate skill set in the red group and therefore there have been no problems. FWIW this is where most of our instructors play, but they are able to run in any group they wish as long as it doesn't interfere with there students schedule. Everyone plays well together and the group has been very popular because of this. Sportsmanship rules...Gentlemans rules. In addition to this we will provide "coaching" for red group participants to help bridge speed gaps or help with analysis at no extra charge.

As far as using this board to make area people aware of this event, it is no different than what you do on this board for NASA or Trackdayz. We have been to VIR 3x in the last 18 months and if all goes well we will be there twice this year. I love VIR and so do the 10/10ths entrants. I typically make multiple events there per year with NASA,NCM, and 10/10ths except for last year which is a whole other story. I WILL be there multiple times this year however and am looking very forward to it. I will not make the March NASA event, but plan on running the July and October events for sure.

Jon, I enjoy the respect that you have bestowed upon me , and the feelings are mutual towards you. You have been a very gracious host everytime that I have been to an event that you are involved with and I have great respect for what you have done for the community. 10/10ths is not coming to VIR to step on your toes with either NASA or Trackdayz, just coming to provide yet another quality venue for people to enjoy at VIR, alot like you guys. You have been invited to come to our events everytime be me personally to run for free as an instructor even without assignment since I enjoy your commoradre and for what you have done for HPDE and motorsports in general. I will talk to Bill and get his feelings towards this , but I would love to extend that offer to you again so that you can see for yourself firsthand that we take safety seriously.

I hope this fixes some of the misunderstandings that you and others may have. Look forward to seeing you all again and leaving black marks all over VIR :>)RAFT on !!!

Danny

getfast

Excellent reply, thank you so much Danny!

Also quickly worth noting, I didn't think it was a question of stepping on toes, I just wanted to make sure it was a safe program for those who choose to attend. Not naming names but some groups come out here once a year and put on bad events, which is unacceptable to me and potentially dangerous for participants (especially when I'm a phonecall away to come help out; there are few problems I can't fix or at least greatly improve.) Admittedly perhaps I should've kept my mouth shut, but I think everyone around here who was thinking about attending is now better informed as a result of the replies from you guys.

I would like to attend if I can clear my schedule, feel free to use me as a backup instructor or check ride guy or whatever you need, I probably won't be driving. I'll email you guys privately about that.

Thanks again Danny and see you soon,

Jon

wneal

10/10ths is happy to announce we are also going to CMP Carolina Motorsports Park on Nov 5-6, 2011 (Sat/Sun)

VIR is just 5 weeks away, hope to see you there.
We are looking forward to another great event at this great track

wneal

Our VIR event is coming up.

At least 3.0 hours of track time each day which amounts to a pretty low cost/hour of track time, not to mention a quality / safe event where you will get the opportunity to learn new things on track.
We have plenty of instructors so even the more advanced drivers can get some expert coaching.

Classroom sessions are open to anyone that wants to attend

Hope to see you there

jimmay

Unfortunately, my car won't be ready for your VIR event Have you considered doing more events at VIR or possibly doing some at Summit Point?

wneal

I am thinking about a late fall event at VIR this year but have not confirmed it.
Summit is an option for 2012.

Keep us in mind when we come back as you will have a great time, at a safe event and get some value for your driving $$

Summit may fit well in my business plan so I will certainly look at it.


Thanks and stay safe
Bill