Water/meth injection concern
02-27-2008, 11:12 AM
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Water/meth injection concern
I am trying to figure out the best location for my water/meth injection nozzle. Tapping into the intake plenum is not an option, btw.
Most have recommended that I place the nozzle a few inches before the throttle body. That is fine but there is one thing that worries me. My turbo setup is a draw-through setup, the blowoff/bypass valve recirculates everything to before the compressor when the throttle closes. Does not vent to the atmosphere.
I am worried that when the throttle closes any water/meth that did not make it into the throttle body will damage my compressor wheel (over time) when it is recirculated.
Any input, comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
Most have recommended that I place the nozzle a few inches before the throttle body. That is fine but there is one thing that worries me. My turbo setup is a draw-through setup, the blowoff/bypass valve recirculates everything to before the compressor when the throttle closes. Does not vent to the atmosphere.
I am worried that when the throttle closes any water/meth that did not make it into the throttle body will damage my compressor wheel (over time) when it is recirculated.
Any input, comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
02-27-2008, 12:19 PM
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Re: Water/meth injection concern
draw through stinks I had a camaro with a drawthrough setup and the throttle response was about a 3 second delay and the turbo lagged for days,but did make good power on only 5psi. It is very simple to convert to blowthrough and still keep the carb, Then you dont have to worry about any water,meth,or gas traveling through the turbo drasticly slowing it down. Ive heard stories of drawthrough setups backfiring and causing the turbo to explode
02-27-2008, 12:21 PM
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Re: Water/meth injection concern
draw through stinks I had a camaro with a drawthrough setup and the throttle response was about a 3 second delay and the turbo lagged for days,but did make good power on only 5psi. It is very simple to convert to blowthrough and still keep the carb, Then you dont have to worry about any water,meth,or gas traveling through the turbo drasticly slowing it down. Ive heard stories of drawthrough setups backfiring and causing the turbo to explode
02-27-2008, 12:42 PM
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Re: Water/meth injection concern
The vehicle is a 2003 Nissan Sentra. No carbs here. Throttle response is great. I would like to avoid converting to a blow-through setup.
Does anyone think that the water/meth being recirculated will cause problems for me?
Thank you for the responses so far.
Does anyone think that the water/meth being recirculated will cause problems for me?
Thank you for the responses so far.
02-27-2008, 03:31 PM
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Re: Water/meth injection concern
You don't have a draw through setup, you have a recirculating bypass setup. If you dumped to atmosphere, you have an atmospheric bypass setup.
Some loosely organized things that just fell out of my head:
The amount of water/meth that would go into your turbo over time would be much less than the humidity that gets sheared out of the air by the turbo when it's a rainy day.. I wouldn't worry about it. The small amount of moisture will get evaporated into the intake air, especially the highly evaporative methanol. If you have a proper water/meth injection setup with a real pump and a real atomizer nozzle (AquaMist, etc, not a windshield washer pump and some plumbing fitting you got from Home Depot), the mixture should be under enough pressure that it should be atomized very well; this isn't like squirting water from a squirt gun into your intake.
Your meth injection setup should only be activated under full throttle, so any residual moisture isn't going to amount to much. Your blowoff (recirc) valve isn't going to be that close to the injection nozzle I would imagine, and not much liquid will make it through.
And now...some education.
Draw through and blow through have to do with carbureted turbo setups. In a draw through, the turbo is between the carburetor and engine, so the air/fuel mixture gets drawn through the carb throat and drawn through the turbo. In a blow through setup, the turbo blows the compressed air through the carburetor, then into the engine. Simple, right?
Some loosely organized things that just fell out of my head:
The amount of water/meth that would go into your turbo over time would be much less than the humidity that gets sheared out of the air by the turbo when it's a rainy day.. I wouldn't worry about it. The small amount of moisture will get evaporated into the intake air, especially the highly evaporative methanol. If you have a proper water/meth injection setup with a real pump and a real atomizer nozzle (AquaMist, etc, not a windshield washer pump and some plumbing fitting you got from Home Depot), the mixture should be under enough pressure that it should be atomized very well; this isn't like squirting water from a squirt gun into your intake.
Your meth injection setup should only be activated under full throttle, so any residual moisture isn't going to amount to much. Your blowoff (recirc) valve isn't going to be that close to the injection nozzle I would imagine, and not much liquid will make it through.
And now...some education.
Draw through and blow through have to do with carbureted turbo setups. In a draw through, the turbo is between the carburetor and engine, so the air/fuel mixture gets drawn through the carb throat and drawn through the turbo. In a blow through setup, the turbo blows the compressed air through the carburetor, then into the engine. Simple, right?
Last edited by Fabrik8; 02-27-2008 at 03:44 PM.
02-27-2008, 03:43 PM
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Re: Water/meth injection concern
Perhaps I have been misinformed before. I was referring to draw-through as the compressor drawing the intake charge through my MAF, instead of blowing through the MAF. I have a few books on the subject but its been a while since I've cracked them. It may be time to dust them off! Thanks for that.
Someone else just pointed out something very obvious. One of those things that is so simple that it is easy to overlook. The water/meth kit will be set to begin injecting at ~4-5psi.....it will stop injecting when below that point. This should lower the amount of water/meth still in the intake charge when the throttle closes but I'm not convinced that there will be NONE left.
What do you guys think, will a small amount of water/meth periodically going through my compressor cause any real trouble?
Someone else just pointed out something very obvious. One of those things that is so simple that it is easy to overlook. The water/meth kit will be set to begin injecting at ~4-5psi.....it will stop injecting when below that point. This should lower the amount of water/meth still in the intake charge when the throttle closes but I'm not convinced that there will be NONE left.
What do you guys think, will a small amount of water/meth periodically going through my compressor cause any real trouble?
02-27-2008, 03:49 PM
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Re: Water/meth injection concern
Yes, it is a real kit. The DevilsOwn base injection kit. The bypass valve is actually just a few inches from the throttle body. I can provide measurements and pictures if that would help.
I appreciate all of the responses so far. Thanks.
I appreciate all of the responses so far. Thanks.
02-27-2008, 03:50 PM
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Re: Water/meth injection concern
Measurements not needed; they won't change anything because there won't be a problem.
Sorry, I kept adding things to my above post.
The MAF has nothing to do with anything at all, it's just a MAF. If it's before the BOV, the ECU can freak out because air mass that has already been measured (by the MAF) is getting dumped to the atmosphere instead of entering the engine, which is why recirculating setups are needed. Cars without MAFs, traditionally cars like Hondas, have a MAP sensor instead and don't care about air mass, only air pressure. Atmo blowoff valves work fine in this instance. One isn't better or worse really, they're just two different methods of engine management strategy, and both have pros and cons. That's a discussion for another day though.
So no, the small amount of moisture won't hurt anything, and it won't be anywhere near the amount of moisture that you think it is. The very, very small hypothetical amount of water mist is going to get vaporized when it comes to your turbo, this isn't the same as dumping a cup of water down your intake or sucking up water from a puddle. You have a pressure switch to turn the pump on and off, and it's such a small amount of water that actually gets injected..
If you have an improperly controlled water injection setup, that is on all the time (say it was just hooked to an on/off switch instead of a some type of controller) then you could pool liquid against the closed throttle plate, but then it would run down into your intercooler. Maybe. This would be like holding an airbrush or spray can in one place for too long. Don't worry about it, it isn't going to happen, and it wouldn't hurt anything if it did.
The stage 2 DevilsOwn kit looks decent, I like that it uses an actual controller and MAP sensor instead of a mechanical pressure switch. Not too bad. Simple, but effective. I'm a big fan of the system 2x AquaMist, and the Painless Performance Striker kit ($$$ but excellent kit).
Sorry, I kept adding things to my above post.
The MAF has nothing to do with anything at all, it's just a MAF. If it's before the BOV, the ECU can freak out because air mass that has already been measured (by the MAF) is getting dumped to the atmosphere instead of entering the engine, which is why recirculating setups are needed. Cars without MAFs, traditionally cars like Hondas, have a MAP sensor instead and don't care about air mass, only air pressure. Atmo blowoff valves work fine in this instance. One isn't better or worse really, they're just two different methods of engine management strategy, and both have pros and cons. That's a discussion for another day though.
So no, the small amount of moisture won't hurt anything, and it won't be anywhere near the amount of moisture that you think it is. The very, very small hypothetical amount of water mist is going to get vaporized when it comes to your turbo, this isn't the same as dumping a cup of water down your intake or sucking up water from a puddle. You have a pressure switch to turn the pump on and off, and it's such a small amount of water that actually gets injected..
If you have an improperly controlled water injection setup, that is on all the time (say it was just hooked to an on/off switch instead of a some type of controller) then you could pool liquid against the closed throttle plate, but then it would run down into your intercooler. Maybe. This would be like holding an airbrush or spray can in one place for too long. Don't worry about it, it isn't going to happen, and it wouldn't hurt anything if it did.
The stage 2 DevilsOwn kit looks decent, I like that it uses an actual controller and MAP sensor instead of a mechanical pressure switch. Not too bad. Simple, but effective. I'm a big fan of the system 2x AquaMist, and the Painless Performance Striker kit ($$$ but excellent kit).
Last edited by Fabrik8; 02-27-2008 at 04:14 PM.
02-28-2008, 12:45 AM
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Re: Water/meth injection concern
Measurements not needed; they won't change anything because there won't be a problem.
Sorry, I kept adding things to my above post.
The MAF has nothing to do with anything at all, it's just a MAF. If it's before the BOV, the ECU can freak out because air mass that has already been measured (by the MAF) is getting dumped to the atmosphere instead of entering the engine, which is why recirculating setups are needed. Cars without MAFs, traditionally cars like Hondas, have a MAP sensor instead and don't care about air mass, only air pressure. Atmo blowoff valves work fine in this instance. One isn't better or worse really, they're just two different methods of engine management strategy, and both have pros and cons. That's a discussion for another day though.
So no, the small amount of moisture won't hurt anything, and it won't be anywhere near the amount of moisture that you think it is. The very, very small hypothetical amount of water mist is going to get vaporized when it comes to your turbo, this isn't the same as dumping a cup of water down your intake or sucking up water from a puddle. You have a pressure switch to turn the pump on and off, and it's such a small amount of water that actually gets injected..
If you have an improperly controlled water injection setup, that is on all the time (say it was just hooked to an on/off switch instead of a some type of controller) then you could pool liquid against the closed throttle plate, but then it would run down into your intercooler. Maybe. This would be like holding an airbrush or spray can in one place for too long. Don't worry about it, it isn't going to happen, and it wouldn't hurt anything if it did.
The stage 2 DevilsOwn kit looks decent, I like that it uses an actual controller and MAP sensor instead of a mechanical pressure switch. Not too bad. Simple, but effective. I'm a big fan of the system 2x AquaMist, and the Painless Performance Striker kit ($$$ but excellent kit).
Sorry, I kept adding things to my above post.
The MAF has nothing to do with anything at all, it's just a MAF. If it's before the BOV, the ECU can freak out because air mass that has already been measured (by the MAF) is getting dumped to the atmosphere instead of entering the engine, which is why recirculating setups are needed. Cars without MAFs, traditionally cars like Hondas, have a MAP sensor instead and don't care about air mass, only air pressure. Atmo blowoff valves work fine in this instance. One isn't better or worse really, they're just two different methods of engine management strategy, and both have pros and cons. That's a discussion for another day though.
So no, the small amount of moisture won't hurt anything, and it won't be anywhere near the amount of moisture that you think it is. The very, very small hypothetical amount of water mist is going to get vaporized when it comes to your turbo, this isn't the same as dumping a cup of water down your intake or sucking up water from a puddle. You have a pressure switch to turn the pump on and off, and it's such a small amount of water that actually gets injected..
If you have an improperly controlled water injection setup, that is on all the time (say it was just hooked to an on/off switch instead of a some type of controller) then you could pool liquid against the closed throttle plate, but then it would run down into your intercooler. Maybe. This would be like holding an airbrush or spray can in one place for too long. Don't worry about it, it isn't going to happen, and it wouldn't hurt anything if it did.
The stage 2 DevilsOwn kit looks decent, I like that it uses an actual controller and MAP sensor instead of a mechanical pressure switch. Not too bad. Simple, but effective. I'm a big fan of the system 2x AquaMist, and the Painless Performance Striker kit ($$$ but excellent kit).
