If the information was correct, that'd be true.


Electronic boost controllers are naturally a boost leak and will spool SLOWER than a correctly built ball and spring style manual controller. The only boost controller that I have ever seen electronic that works better than a manual controller is the HKS ones. AVC-R isn't too bad either. Electronic controllers control boost by bleeding off boost signal, whereas a manual controller uses a spring activated check valve to allow signal to reach the gate only at the desired boost level, without bleeding off boost.

 

so manual or electronic?!?!?!!?

 

it really honestly just comes down to what is easier for you to deal with. Profec is garbage. If you get a electronic, get the HKS. Otherwise, I'd stick with the manual controller. Hallman makes a manual controller that can be remotely turned up and down from inside the car if that is what you're looking for.

 

If an electronic boost controller doesn't work better than a manual one, you've got a complete piece of shit electronic boost controller, or it's been set up really badly.

Other than that, I don't know what you're talking about. A boost solenoid that isn't open can't be a boost leak..

Electronic boost controllers bleed off the boost signal, but it clearly sounds like you're confusing their operation with a bleed-type manual boost controller.

Manual bleed-type boost controllers bleed off the wastegate line, which is the reason they don't work very well. A fixed-area boost leak is a big compromise, which is why bleed-type manual boost controllers don't stack up to the other types.

So, now a few words about how electronic units actually work, and why they're different from bleed-type manual units.

Electronic boost controllers use an air solenoid, which works similarly to how your IACV valve works. Basically the solenoid can be operated all the way open, all the way closed, or anywhere in between. The boost controller uses a pressure sensor to measure the pressure (obviously) and then controls the solenoid in order to bleed off boost. The solenoid isn't open all the time, and stays shut until the boost level is reached, which acts the same way as a ball and spring type manual controller (actually, the solenoid is opened before that point to keep the boost pressure from overshooting where it is supposed to be. Manual controllers can't do that.) After that point, the boost controller controls how much the solenoid is open to properly regulate the wastegate line. Basically, to keep the boost in the right range, the solenoid is opening more or opening less depending on how much air needs to be bled off to properly regulate boost. All of this works closed-loop, so the boost controller is constantly adjusting to bleed off more or less based on the pressure signal it measures.
That's exactly the same way idle is regulated on an engine, the ECU looks at the engine RPM, and controls the IACV to open or close more/less to keep the engine idling at the right RPM. When the car is not idling, the IACV is closed.

Regulating boost like that is something that a spring and ball type manual controller can't do very well in comparison. All it cares about is whether the boost level is over the threshold to overcome the preset spring pressure, and then it opens (which opens the wastegate). That's still oversimplifying how it works, because of problems with spring hysteresis and other mechanical effects. I see that Hallman has a new ceramic ball version to help get rid of those mechanical effects, which is interesting. It has no other regulating ability other than whether it is open or closed though, that's all it does. It's like a light switch. No feedback, no closed-loop operation, just on or off above the preset boost threshold.

Now you know why OEM turbo cars (and all turbo rally/roadrace/etc cars) don't use manual boost controllers of any type. Electronic setups are far superior, especially when the ECU is directly performing the boost control instead of a standalone electronic boost controller.. Drag cars usually have different operating conditions and can get away with simpler boost control because of that, but I digress.

With that being said, a ball and spring type manual controller could work very well for your setup, and they're cheap. It really boils down to whether you want cost effective and good boost controller performance, or more expensive but excellent boost controller performance.


If you already have an S200, and are doing a low boost setup, just buy a manual ball and spring unit, it will work fine. I'm done arguing this, just buy a manual one.

 

You realize you just contradicted yourself and backed up what I said even though you were trying to argue right? I'm quite sure I know electronic boost controllers work, considering I've programmed the software for one before. The mechanical aspect of the mechanical controller is EXACTLY why it's better. Pure physics is hard to be inconsistent. Yes, the Electronic controller stays shut until just before the GATE PRESSURE. If it stays shut after the gate pressure is reached, then it will signal the gate to open. So you have to start pulsing the solenoid at the gate pressure to avoid gate opening. HKS EVC uses a closed system with a stepper motor which fixes this problem. All the solenoid types are the same, bi-directional solenoid that either bleeds or allows pass through. I had never really thought about all the downsides to the electronic controller before, until I actually had to write software to do it. The trick is, you have to either run a gate spring that is close to desired boost, or, what I like to do also, is run a cheap manual controller then the boost solenoid after that. This way the boost solenoid can stay shut till the last second. You get the stability of a electronically stabilized boost setting, with minimal bleed off.

 

I guess I used an unfortunate choice of wording. I should have said "bled through" instead of "bled off". I see how that would have been completely confusing, that's my fault.

Solenoids can work exactly the same as a ball and spring mechanical, so I guess I'm still slightly confused about what you're trying to say, but I guess that would depend on what type of solenoids we're talking about...?

I should really go back and edit/clarify some things I guess; maybe I'll do that tomorrow.

I guess I should have added that OEM electronic systems usually use a bleed off type, which is good at regulating boost but not so good at building boost fast, and could be prone to the problems you were talking about. I like the bleed through systems, often called "blocking" or "interruption" type systems, which work like the ball/spring mechanical units but have all of the benefits of electronic control too. Both systems can be installed in different configurations, so there are obviously different ways which each can work, with related pros and cons.
Internal wastegates with a single port have less control options than two port external wastegates, etc., so more permutations there.

We're apparently talking about different setups I assume, which is where the confusion lies. I'm admittedly much more familiar with aftermarket ECU-based boost control than aftermarket standalone boost controllers, so I don't know all of the types out on the market. I don't really like piggyback or add-on solutions to any aspect of tuning, whether it's boost control, fuel/ignition mapping, anything. Why everyone doesn't use a blocking type setup I don't know. We usually use PID based blocking setups for many of the engine management strategies in our ECUs, though it really depends on the target application. The fact is that there isn't any reason that an electronic unit shouldn't be able to far surpass the performance of a ball and spring type, unless it's a piece of crap like I said before.

I probably should have just stayed out of this one, knowing that he was probably going to use a electronic unit which are all apparently junk.

 

I'm interested to see what kind of system you're using where a block off system actually works? I've tried this method before and it never has really worked well, and when it did work, it just didn't have much adjust ability range. I have tried it with a MAC valve as well as GM solenoid and neither worked too well in a block off type. I have tried it in both directly mapped pulsewidth setups as well as feedback controlled systems, obviously it worked a little better with boost feedback, but it still just didn't have a good working range.

 

It's been so long since I've screwed with most of this stuff except for the control algorithms. I don't get to play with engines much anymore at the moment unfortunately.

f I remember correctly a restrictor is needed in the line and will greatly increase the dynamic range. What I think you're talking about is a problem where the linear control range of the solenoid isn't very good because it flows too much at small valve openings. I believe the restrictor tends to help this a lot, because then you're dealing with regulating the pressure drop between the restrictor and the wastegate with much lower flow.. I had this discussion a really long time ago with someone, and I think he said the World Electronics controllers must use a restrictor for this reason if the solenoid is used in a blocking setup.

I'll have to go revisit how the 3 port solenoids are setup, you've put a nagging question in my head and I can't remember the reasoning behind it. The ports are connected differently in a blocking setup than a bleed off setup, but that's about the end of what I remember.