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which bike is better?

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Old 11-21-2008, 11:43 AM
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Default which bike is better?

this would be my first bike and hopefully not my last one
the 08 and 09 Kawasaki 250 R
http://www. kawasaki. com/products/product-specifications. aspx?id=263

Or


The Kawasaki 2008 ZZR 600
http://www. kawasaki. com/Products/product-details-features. aspx?autoplay=false&id=268
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: which bike is better?

lol cavi98 on a bike.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: which bike is better?

I would go with the 250R. You are new and inexperienced. The ZZR600 in my eyes is still a SS bike as it is the ZX6R of yesteryears and still has 111 hp. You will be a much better rider in the longrun with a 250R. You will have a bike that will allow you to learn and be better rider and it is more forgiving if you make a mistake unlike the SS bikes.

Also I recommend taking a MSF BRC course as well. It will teach you right and wrong ways of riding, but always remember, you are still a noob. Experience is what will make you a better rider.

Here is some good info regarding bike selection and what you are ready for.
Driving a fast car is nothing like riding a motorcycle. Geometry, turning, throttle and brake control, all are completely different and being experienced with one has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you’d be good at the other. You can’t come straight from winning an autocross event, hop on a 600cc supersport for the first time, and run laps with the intermediate or advanced riders. You’ll more likely be at the back of the beginner class getting lapped by 2-strokes.

Being responsible does not make you a good rider. It prevents you from doing stupid things and pursuing the proper training, but responsibility doesn’t react in an emergency situation. To me, responsibility means having the sense to start on an appropriate machine and realize that you’re not Nicky Hayden.
Respecting the bike won’t help either. I respected my mother when I was a kid, but she still slapped the hell out of me when I did something stupid. A supersport has the potential to do the same thing.

Riding is a series of inputs that result in desired effects. You twist the throttle, bike moves forward. You apply the brakes, bike slows down. You countersteer, bike turns. These are the simplest of actions that should be instinctive. As a new rider, you probably don’t have the ability to do these things without first giving them some thought.

Do you know exactly what your body would do if you were at full lean in a decreasing radius, left-hand, uphill turn and you suddenly see a patch of loose gravel in front of you? Do you know exactly how your left and right hand would react if you braked hard and your front tire locked? If you’re a new rider and you don’t yet own a bike, you probably don’t know.

That’s where the problem lies. A full-on race-replica bike (GSX-R, CBR, ZX6, R6, etc.) will act on the inputs it’s given, regardless of whether or not the rider in the saddle intended to give it that signal. A new rider may brake hard, telling the bike to “Brake as hard as possible.” Front brake locks, and both bike and rider are now entering a situation where the outcome depends on the experience of the one giving the input. In another scenario, bike and rider are at a good lean in a turn, rider dials in more throttle, unintentionally giving the bike the signal to “Provide more power to the rear wheel.” The rear breaks traction, and again bike and rider are again in a situation where the outcome relies on the ability of the rider to recover from a dangerous situation. Unfortunately, new riders in these situations commonly end up testing the limits of their gear. The problem is that these riders are on bikes they do not have the experience to properly control, while the bikes are simply doing exactly what they are told. With a more experienced rider, these situations are nothing more than pucker moments that remind them of their bike’s limits.

A suitable beginner bike will give more margins for error in these situations. A supersport might put you on your ass in a ditch, while an EX500 might get in your face and say, “Are you sure you want to do that?” I’m certainly not saying one can’t begin on a supersport, but riding just well enough to survive is not the ultimate goal, especially if you plan on enjoying the riding lifestyle for many years to come.
Here is some info regarding how an SS handles verse a 250-500
The most common issue with 600's/liters IMO is this situation; one of I've seen happen too many times-

You are going fast. You are going fast because your bike is powerful, it's fun to go fast, and it's easy to go fast. Then you realize you are going too fast for a given turn. You need to slow down and lean the bike over at the same time in order to take the turn. However, these two actions counter each other. When braking, especially when you have supersport braking power, the bike stands up, and will fight leaning over in proportion to its braking power. Under full braking it's impossible to lean the bike over, expert or novice. Now you have to make the choice between standing the bike up more in order to slow down faster, or maintain your speed and lean the bike over in prepration of the turn. Best case you enter the turn much faster than you feel comfortable doing and "manage".

Most of the time newbs try to do both, understeer horrendously, and fly right off the road. When you aren't on a SS, several things differ. First, you won't be going as fast in the first place. By definition, this means you will not need to slow down as fast or as quickly. You will already know your brakes aren't as strong and won't wait as long to start braking. Your brakes aren't as powerful, so you have a better chance of braking and getting the bike to lean a little. Lastly, the handle bars are in different places. Instead of low and with little movement lock to lock, they are higher and require less effort to 'force' the bike to lean.

All these "details" add up to a massive difference. Almost every single person who has not ridden a SS but is ballsy enough to do so without previous riding experience is going to encounter the above situation at least a few times. I encounter it all the time but I know what to do from experience.
Also here is a good post on Wanting a 600
So, if you're bent on an SS, think long and hard about WHY you want one so bad and see if your "reason" is down below. I bet it will be.

"A Bike Dealer/Friend/Relative/Guy with Bike told me that 600's are good starter bikes."
Its a common fact that people instictively try to find others with interests that follow their own. Its also interesting to point out that if a person makes a knowingly poor choice, he/she is likely to try and validate that poor choice by convincing others that it was an "OK" thing to do because "they did it." I also don't think it comes as a shock that dealers get a higher commision from selling a $9000 bike vs a $3000 bike.

I love the looks of (insert SS here)
Who doesn't? But if you are seriously ready to knowingly make an unsafe decision for the sake of buying a "cool bike", it speaks volumes about your priorities as a person. Its also not a stretch to predict that a person who buys a bike just so they can "look cool" on it, will inevitably crash because they were more pre-occupied with "looking cool" on it than watching where they are going. "Hey! She's checking me out!!! I really look.....(splat)"

"I'm a responsible/safe person and I will respect the power of the bike.
Um, no, you aren't and no, you won't. Styling aside, people don't buy a more powerful bike with the intent of going slow. If going slow was the intent, a 250/500/cruiser would fit the bill just fine. People buy an SS because they want to go fast. You're not responsible or safe because your actions (decision to buy an SS) is neither responsible OR safe. Also, why on Earth would you "respect" the power of an SS when you're buying it based ON its power? This excuse embodies the, "Peoples' actions show who they are, peoples' words dictate who they want others to THINK they are." philosophy.

I have dirt riding experience so I'm not a new rider
On the street? Yes you are. End of discussion.

I can learn just as well on a 600 as a smaller bike because I'm special.
Well, you may be "special". You may be able to hop on that bike and ride it like Nicky Hayden stole it after 1 month. BUT, the odds of that are about the same as the odds of Kate Beckinsale showing up naked at my doorstep with a bowl of whipped cream. Possible, sure... but not likely. And hating people that quote statistics doesn't make them less true.

I'm a REAL big guy so I need a big bike.
Real question here is height, not wieght. Unless you're in excess of 300lbs, its not that big of a deal when starting out. Now if you're over 6'2", comfort could be an issue. But there are cruiser bikes that you could learn on that would fit you better until you're ready to move up to the SS. There are always alternatives.

"250/500's are just not powerful enough" or "I'll get bored with it in a year"
A Ninja 250 with a 170lbs rider and full tank of gas will run a 14 flat 1/4 mile and has a sub-6 0-60 and a top speed of 120mph. 500's are even faster. If you you are buying a motorcycle with the sole interest of going faster than that, you shouldn't be on a motorcycle at all. Also, ask any EXPERIENCED rider, (read; years experience) how long it took them to be considered a "Good" rider. The answer is more than a year nearly every time. That first year is crucial to developing your skills, not seeing how hard you can ride.

Since I don't work for Kawasaki and don't have anything to gain other than a marginally safer riding environment from encouraging riders to start small. You could say that I am a "Start Small Nazi" on this board. I wear that label proudly (with the exception of the Nazi part, I prefer advocate) since by saying that about me, and others around here, you're saying....

1. We're able to set aside our vanity for a while in the interest of becoming a better rider.
2. Our desire to go fast doesn't trump our survival instinct.
3. Technique is more important than image.
4. There's another person I'll be able to smoke on track day when I upgrade to an SS if not now.

Ultimately, there's nothing that I, or anyone else on SBN can say to stop someone that's made up their mind to do something stupid. But, IMHO, if one person does the right thing this season and lives longer because of it, its worth it.

Last edited by Woodrow; 11-21-2008 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:07 PM
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Default Re: which bike is better?

Agreed. Start small and move up later.
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Old 11-21-2008, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: which bike is better?

Don't just start smaller, but don't start new either. Your best bet is looking for a 250-500 for under 3k instead and using the rest of the money to get some good gear.
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Old 11-21-2008, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: which bike is better?

+1 on investing money on good gear.
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Old 11-21-2008, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: which bike is better?

Man I still need to get some good gear.
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: which bike is better?

get a busa...please.
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: which bike is better?

Man, and I thought I saw enough threads like this on the Yami and Kawi boards. Get what you feel most comfortable on, because in the end, you'll get what you want, regardless of what people here recommend. Any bike can kill you. Typically, the bigger the bike, the higher the chance. Take the MSF and go from there. I'd personally recommend something used. That way, when you go down, (Because you will at some point. Whether you want to or not.) you aren't paying out the ass for fairings that cost half of what you paid for the bike.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: which bike is better?

Get a ZX-14 and be done with.
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