Roll Cage Questions
 

I was thinking about getting either a Cusco 4 or 6 point roll cage. It's approved by some sactioning body in .jp (I can't recall the name of it) but not any from USA as far as I know.

Are the allowed in auto-x / road racing? If I was to take my car to VIR or some other track would they allow it? I don't want to get it only to find out I can't even use it.

If i were you, i'd just have a custom cage built for your car locally (hey, that is what i did!!) As far as Auto-X...i have no clue. As far as driving schools at VIR or Summit....as long as the cage is properly installed and safe, they won't give you any hassle. You do have to install padding anywhere your helmet/head can contact the bars while you're seated in the car.

I would do that except it's probably going to be just as expensive. I don't see why I wouldn't get the Cusco one at that point.

Oh ... I've been told that it's FIA approved if that's worth anything?

i haven't seen the cusco cage....so i don't know how the fitment is w/ it. Lots of the ones for RX7's fit like shit. Price being equal.....i'd rather have something built the way i want it, to my specs....Not some mass produced bar.

If it is FIA you can use it just about anywhere I would think. The prices on the cusco cages are really good, but I haven't seen any installed. Have you thought about the Autopower ones? They have different levels and you can upgrade at a later date also.

Hey grey: how much did your cage run you and what type is it?

Mine was custom built by Mandeville racing in SC. He is a HUGE RX7 racecar builder...Price wasn't really set as that it was traded for other things.

Autopower is SFI approved I believe. For auto-x, you are allowed an 8-pt in street prepared.
for stock class

Some info I was given about Cusco cages ...

Cusco cages are chromoly, supposedly 33% lighter than steel ones (dunno how true that is)

4 Point Cage is 437.00 and weighs in at 23 pounds
6 Point Cage is 782.00 and weighs in at 41 pounds

Now just gotta decide which one I want to get.

I hate to bring up old threads but recently someone from one of the Nissan boards I frequent installed the Cusco 6 point in his S13 (the model previous to my car) which has raised some questions for me.

Thread is here: http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthre...fpart=all&vc=1

Several people have commented that it wouldn't be allowed by most (all?) racing organizations. Can someone confirm or deny this for me? I'm not all that worried about drag racing, mainly auto-x and road courses.

damn eng, I was just about to bring that post up.

WARNING!!!
before you install any roll bar/cage, you have to do a few things. First decide what you are going to do with your car. Is this a car you are thinking about starting to autocross and plan to migrate and later take it on to IT racing or NASA HC or whatever. Or all you will ever do with this car is local autocrosses and some club track schools at VIR or wherever.

Even in SCCA the rules for a bar/cage are different between Solo II (autocross) for stock classes, Street Prepared Classes, Prepared classes, IT road racing, AS, Production classes, and GT classes. It would be a shame to run you car for a while and then decide you want to move up to something else and find you are limited because you now have too good of a roll cage. It does happen.

Then get the rules for the general direction you think you might want to go and make sure you have a cage or a bar that is upgradable in that direction.

Autopower bars are generally made like that with SCCA racers in mind. I would suggest getting an Autopower BAR and put that in first. Live with it a while, enter some events. Then decide where you next step should be. You can then have a local fabricator make additions to the bar, or grow it into a cage for you. You will have a better idea of what you can live with and what you can't.

I will tell you that bar/cage rules for SCCA Solo II are very confusing. There are probably only a handfull of people in the country that completely understand them. I have a better grasp of them than most people in this area, but I still have to refer to all of the books to be sure.

I don't know anything about the cages or bars built by Cusco so I can't say if they are good, or legal. I would suggest comparing how they are built against the rule books. Anyone that builds rollbars will have good safe welds and things like that. Your problems are going to be fitting them into your car with street equipment and how much of a compromise with the utilitarian purposes of your car.

Trust me, living with a roll cage on a daily driver is annoying, more than you might realize. Putting a cage in most cars is one of the first steps to admitting that this is your track car and you have something else for daily transportation.

Well I'm pretty sure that some of the mods I've already done to my car puts my car into a somewhat hard/high(?) class (LSD, coilovers, various suspension components, etc) So even what class I'd be competing in is already limited. And to be honest I'm not really concerned about how I do in the class, just being able to run is fine. I can't predict the future but I would like to do more than just the local autocrosses.

Are the rule books online somewhere I could look at? That's my biggest concern is that the cage is approved in a certain class for the local autocrosses, but when I decide to go to a track it won't be legal and I won't be able to run.

The reason I just haven't gone ahead and gotten an Autopower cage is that I've heard their fitment is less than optimal. In addition the Cusco cage is bolt-in. Which is good in the event some place complains I could just take it out. Check the link I posted, it has pictures of the cage in question.

terry baker (red m3 from atlantic autowerks ltd) has a 6 point i believe and i also believe theyre allowed because he autocrosses with that car almost every event.

I hadn't looked far enough down on that page to see the pics he had of the cage.

The quality of that cage is fine. But it doesn't conform to many rules. It does not follow the Appendix C of the Solo II rules. What this means is that for autocross probably nobody will ever complain. I am assuming you are running in a closed car (with a roof as opposed to a convertible). Closed cars don't have to have a bar or cage in any Stock, SP or Prepared class. So the conventional wisdom is that any bar is better than no bar. Since you don't need to have the bar you adding one of almost any style is ok to most people.

But..... as a warning. If you get a real anal tech inspector (again where I said that there are only a handful of people in the country that fully understand the autocross roll bar/cage rules) they may not let you run with it. But you would be allowed to run with no bar/cage. I know it is stupid, but by the "letter" of the rules that is how it is.

I don't think your chances of running into such a tech inspector are very likely. So...... I'd probably go for it.

As far as track schools, again they have no requirement for closed cars either. And each sanctioning body may have a different interpretation of what is safe. I would think most of them would allow that bar/cage to run.

If I were you, I would get a hold of an SCCA rulebook about roll cages. I don't have one and I don't know if it is avaialble online (I suspect that it is not). I have an old one at home, but I am sure someone here has access to a newer one. Read the road racing cage rules as they apply to your car as an Imporved Touring and a Production Class road race car. Make sure that the Cusco cage has tubing that is at least the diamter, material, and wall thickness these classes require. If it is I'd get it.

I know that the design does not meet these rules, but it can be added on to where it does eventually come up to these specs, if it is made out of the right material. If a track school requires you to add a cross brace, you can have one added, or whatever as needed. If you find out that it is made from tubing that is not adequate, by the SCCA rules then I would stay away from it. It is not a great design from a safety point of view, and you would wind up completely replacing it if you ever decide to do anything else.

My opinion is, as deliverd, that cage is mostly for the ricer crowd to impress people on the street with the fact that they have a cage in their car. It adds very little to the car in safety.

My opinions, remember what they cost you :)

What rules does it not follow? Piping to small? The fact it's bolt-in? Because it's blue? ~_~

Do you know where/who I would have to contact to get a hold of the roll cage rule book? Beside the people on this forum I wouldn't know where to start.

Also those were pictures of a 6 point, they also make an 8 point that has more bars in the back. You can also get addtional bars that go from the bottom of the A-pillar around the floor to the middle of the B-pillar (basically across where you sit). There's also some others I know I'm forgetting.

I think what you're saying is that the roll cage rules are so confusing even if I got some other cage it may or may not be approved. If that's the case the fact that this is bolt-in is even more appealing ... just take out a few bolts if someone complains and voila no cage to complain about. Most people have said that the Cusco cage is the opposite. It provides roll over protection but little in the way of chassis stiffness. Which as I'm sure you're aware is a fringe benefit of having a cage.

It is FIA approved, so it's gotta be good for something. Too bad FIA approval means nothing in the US :(

I think you have me right in saying that roll cage riles are confusing. Also I need to say that no one roll cage rule applies across the board. A cage that is legal for SCCA Production classes may not be legal for Improved Touring, or Showroom stock, or Touring classes in road racing.

Autopower cages are desigend with SCCA classes and legality in mind. If it is SCCA legal it is always legal for NASA events for example. So the Autopower path is one you can count on being legal.

You can get the rule books from Greg Smith at an SCCA ODR autocross at Pungo. Call him before hand and ask him if somone has last years rulebooks and will let you borrow them. The cage rules haven't changed for this year.

The important thing to find out is the race weight for an improved touring car and production class car of your car..... (did that make sense) and read the appendix on roll cages and find out what size tubing is necessary (wall thickness and bar O.D.) Make sure the Cusco bar meets these. If it does then I would buy it. If it doesn't I would probably look at other options.

I should also say that I don't like the idea that the Cusco cage has no cross brace in the main hoop. It also doesn't seem to have provisions for adding one. It seems that the bar in the pictures is over the seats and there is no room in the plane of the main hoop to add a straight cross brace. This makes me uncomfortable about it. I am a seat of the pants engineer on things like this, but it does make a huge differance.

New change to the NASA rules -- DOM tubing must be used. Older cars with ERw tubing will be gradfathered in. Here's the note.
NASA Rollbar Changes
1/9/2003

Wrom: UQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGP KYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXF

Memorandum

No new logbooks will be issued after 4/30/03 to any race car that has a cage made from ERW tubing. Cars with cages certified before then will be grandfathered in.

Note: SCCA has a similar rule, but will not issue logbooks after 1/1/2003 for those cars with ERW tubing (according to a phone conversation with their national tech dept.).

Advisory: Use DOM tubing when constructing a cage.

Hrm ... well I'm not really sure what kind of tubing the Cusco cage uses but it's chromoly which is stronger than DOM which is stronger than ERW (for same size tubing).

So I guess I just gotta figure out the tubing size?

FWIW, chromoly cages are strong, but they are difficult to add onto easily. Any welding that is done to the cage must be "stress relieved" after the welding is done. I always prefer to use 1018 miled steel rather than the moly tubing with my cages, but that is personal choice. The moly tubes belong on Formula cars and things like that.

Good reading in the Carroll Smith line of books about these subjects. I think Engineer to Win has the explinations of the material science of various grades of steel. Of course all of the Caroll Smiths books are required reading for anyone that is putting a race car on a track.

Nothing from what you have said so far would even suggest that you need a cage. You don't need one for autocrossing. Do you participate in events that you would need the added protection of a cage?

I don't feel comfortable using a harness without, at the very least, a roll bar. At that point why not just get a cage?

Because a cage is a pain in the butt for a regular car. If you are not doing track events I don't think I would put a cage in a car. If you only do autocrossing it is not needed. You still have not explained what type of events you participate in and if it is a daily driver or not. A cage for VIR would be nice but if you have not gone yet wait until you have some experiance first. I just got back from VIR and none of the cars in my group had a cage. You may decide you dont like track events and not go back.

Let me worry about what I'm comfortable with as a daily driven car. The same thing came up in the thread I posted that had links to pictures of the Cusco cage. Yes, some people couldn't stand it in a car that's daily driven, others didn't mind it so much.

Are any of the mods you've done for you car really needed? Of course not, they do something better than stock or offer you some feature you want. But absolutely, positively, without a doubt needed? Probably not. I want roll over protection. Perhaps you're comfortable using a harness without a cage, I am not.

I was merely trying to clear up some of the rules before I purchased a cage. Which as many of the posts Calvin made point out, are extremely confusing. I wasn't trying to determine if I should get a cage or not.

he said he would not put a cage in his car if he was not doing track events, he wasn't telling you what to do.

what does having a harness have to do w/ having a cage? what do you plan on doing that invovles flipping over?

Who plans to flip over? You don't need to be racing to have that happen. Naturally the chances of this happening during normal driving are pretty slim, but racing does increase the odds.

With that out of the way if you roll and have normal seat belts on the way they are designed you can move down/out of the way. Try leaning to the side with them on and you'll see what I'm talking about. Damn that common sense! With a harness you're not going anywhere. If your car rolls and you don't have something to prevent the roof from collapsing ... bye bye, nice knowing you, see ya later.

Tis what im doing too, its actually to your advantage to have a custom one done cause you can get it formed to your needs such as camera brackets, or color, or whatever.....


You can use the lil foam rings (pool noodles) and some duct tape, or the foam that went around old school BMX bikes....No need to spend a lot of money on some name brand pads.......

FWIW, the Solo II rules do say that a convertible can't use anything but the factory belts, unless a rollbar is installed. Specifically for the reason that eng said. If it rolls you grab hold of the shifter and pull yourself towards it.

I did choose to use a 4pt harness for autocrossing but will not use it without a bar at a roadcourse. The only reason to put a cage in a car in my book is for roadcourse work. The speeds in autocrossing are just not high enough to warrant a cage.