HELP!! -- Swap not going so well!
11-27-2005, 02:33 PM
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HELP!! -- Swap not going so well!
Ok, this is my first swap for my own car and Im doing it with a few british guys I don't know to well and all they have done is two swaps on honda coupes that were already obd2 and British spec.
Here is the low down -
Car -93 Del Sol
original motor was a D series SOHC 1.5 Non-vtec
New motor B18C6 out of a 99 or 98 UKDM Honda Integra Type R
Motor mounted fine and swiped a del sol B-series shift linkage from a Junkyard - New flywheel and clutch have been installed with a DC sports ceramic header. ECU is an OBD1 p28
The harness is two piece off of the Del Sol and the Integra Type R was two piece also - we used the Del sol piece comming from inside the car and hooked it up to the 2nd piece that connects to the B18. they clipped in perfectly and everything seems to match up.
First start up - runs rough and surges but stays alive
Engine codes - it was Vtec - so we wired up Vtec
No more engine codes and we messed with things abit but now it wont idle on its own - we did mess with they idle though because it was all the way out before. Ive checked the dizzy(new one) every spark plug cable and too see if the plugs were sparking in each cable ... we also pulled each plug to see if maybe one of the cylinders were bad and all reacted the same.
When the plugs were pullede they were covered in black soot. I believe that meant over fueling?
During trouble shooting these are the theories I have and what has been suggested.
1- I used the fuel line from the original motor - Should I use the integra one from the pump to the rail? Are they different sizes?
2- The 02 sensor going into the header was a 2 wire on the d series and a 4 on the Integra - do I need to wire up all 4 wires - would an 02 sensor unhooked make it run this crappy?
3- Was there a difference in the type of injection on these models. Today someone mentioned dual point and multipoint injection and that it might have been different. - I thought this would be taken care of by the Ecu but Im tired and have been working on this all day.- Thier way to fix this was to totaly pull the harness and use both pieces of the integra one and go OBD2 - although I cant do that cause the p73 Ecu has an immobilizer that goes with the Key barrel and I dont have that out of the original donor. The other thing that was suggested was to use a harness converter from OBD2 to OBD1 - But since I have 6 days before the car needs to be shipped to the US and parts here our outrageous, I would really like to avoid that route if possible.
I know I might get a bunch of crap for this post, but I would like some help since Im still learning.
Here is the low down -
Car -93 Del Sol
original motor was a D series SOHC 1.5 Non-vtec
New motor B18C6 out of a 99 or 98 UKDM Honda Integra Type R
Motor mounted fine and swiped a del sol B-series shift linkage from a Junkyard - New flywheel and clutch have been installed with a DC sports ceramic header. ECU is an OBD1 p28
The harness is two piece off of the Del Sol and the Integra Type R was two piece also - we used the Del sol piece comming from inside the car and hooked it up to the 2nd piece that connects to the B18. they clipped in perfectly and everything seems to match up.
First start up - runs rough and surges but stays alive
Engine codes - it was Vtec - so we wired up Vtec
No more engine codes and we messed with things abit but now it wont idle on its own - we did mess with they idle though because it was all the way out before. Ive checked the dizzy(new one) every spark plug cable and too see if the plugs were sparking in each cable ... we also pulled each plug to see if maybe one of the cylinders were bad and all reacted the same.
When the plugs were pullede they were covered in black soot. I believe that meant over fueling?
During trouble shooting these are the theories I have and what has been suggested.
1- I used the fuel line from the original motor - Should I use the integra one from the pump to the rail? Are they different sizes?
2- The 02 sensor going into the header was a 2 wire on the d series and a 4 on the Integra - do I need to wire up all 4 wires - would an 02 sensor unhooked make it run this crappy?
3- Was there a difference in the type of injection on these models. Today someone mentioned dual point and multipoint injection and that it might have been different. - I thought this would be taken care of by the Ecu but Im tired and have been working on this all day.- Thier way to fix this was to totaly pull the harness and use both pieces of the integra one and go OBD2 - although I cant do that cause the p73 Ecu has an immobilizer that goes with the Key barrel and I dont have that out of the original donor. The other thing that was suggested was to use a harness converter from OBD2 to OBD1 - But since I have 6 days before the car needs to be shipped to the US and parts here our outrageous, I would really like to avoid that route if possible.
I know I might get a bunch of crap for this post, but I would like some help since Im still learning.
11-27-2005, 02:56 PM
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Re: HELP!! -- Swap not going so well!
one problem i noticed was that you used the del sol inner harness and the integra bay harness, correct me if im wrong but the obd1 del sols and p28's did not have crank angle sensors, im not certain at all about the non american integra's, but the usdm 96 and up did have crank angle sensors. just assuming the ukdm integras did have crank angle sensors, you could POSSIBLY be inputting a reading into a totally wrong ecu pin if the reading is coming through the harness and it wouldnt flash a code because the p28's dont have them.just a theory but you could be inputting wrong sensor readings or grounding out something by using the interior harness,im prolly all wrong though. and there should be no difference in the type of fuel delivery beetween the two that i know of, if it was an earlier model that was running mpfi then i would see a problem in the harness's used. i might be wrong about the fuel injection type so keep searching, you might want to check your timing as well, make sure its not off like crazy. the o2 sensor may be a problem, the 4 wire integra sensor is a heated sensor, and the 2 wire isnt. the fuel line should not be a problem at all. do a compression and leak down test just to make sure as well.
Last edited by MORE IMPATIENT; 11-27-2005 at 03:11 PM.
11-27-2005, 03:25 PM
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Re: HELP!! -- Swap not going so well!
Originally Posted by WillSol
Crank angle sensor? ..what would this do or cause? How could I hard wire it?
Thanks for the info!
Thanks for the info!
11-27-2005, 03:29 PM
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Re: HELP!! -- Swap not going so well!
Well I have the inner OBD2 harness..but not an OBD2 Ecu without an immobilizer
any UK car after 96 came with one of those and you have to the matching key barrel with the ECU..Its a pain. Plus to order a obd2-obd1 converter would take forever to get here to England ((more than 10 days) )
But I will definitely look up what you are talking about.
any UK car after 96 came with one of those and you have to the matching key barrel with the ECU..Its a pain. Plus to order a obd2-obd1 converter would take forever to get here to England ((more than 10 days) )
But I will definitely look up what you are talking about.
11-27-2005, 05:23 PM
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Re: HELP!! -- Swap not going so well!
You're using an unchipped P28 to try to run an ITR engine???
This is your first mistake. You're trying to run a totally different engine with an ECU that was never designed to run it. Get it chipped with at least a EDM P30 program, and get it tuned if you can. It's too bad you can't use the ITR ECU, that immobilizer is a bitch.
Second mistake. Biggest mistake. You have only 2 wires wired up for the O2 sensor. This means that your heated O2 sensor isn't getting heated. You need the correct type of O2 sensor for that ECU. P28s are 4-wire, so you just need to hook up the rest of the wires. Consult a factory manual.
You'll probably want to upgrade your fuel lines too, I seem to remember that being a problem. You can use pretty much any 95-97 vtec (B16) del sol parts you need to, including mounts, radiator hoses, etc. A B-series is a B-series as far as swaps go. Just be careful that you get parts for the same drive side (right or left hand drive)..
The injection is the same. Don't worry about it.
All OBD1 engines had crank angle, cylinder position, and top dead center sensors. Don't worry about it.
This is your first mistake. You're trying to run a totally different engine with an ECU that was never designed to run it. Get it chipped with at least a EDM P30 program, and get it tuned if you can. It's too bad you can't use the ITR ECU, that immobilizer is a bitch.
Second mistake. Biggest mistake. You have only 2 wires wired up for the O2 sensor. This means that your heated O2 sensor isn't getting heated. You need the correct type of O2 sensor for that ECU. P28s are 4-wire, so you just need to hook up the rest of the wires. Consult a factory manual.
You'll probably want to upgrade your fuel lines too, I seem to remember that being a problem. You can use pretty much any 95-97 vtec (B16) del sol parts you need to, including mounts, radiator hoses, etc. A B-series is a B-series as far as swaps go. Just be careful that you get parts for the same drive side (right or left hand drive)..
The injection is the same. Don't worry about it.
All OBD1 engines had crank angle, cylinder position, and top dead center sensors. Don't worry about it.
Last edited by Fabrik8; 11-27-2005 at 05:29 PM.
11-27-2005, 05:35 PM
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Re: HELP!! -- Swap not going so well!
Originally Posted by Fabrik8
You're using an unchipped P28 to try to run an ITR engine???
This is your first mistake. You're trying to run a totally different engine with an ECU that was never designed to run it. Get it chipped with at least a EDM P30 program, and get it tuned if you can. It's too bad you can't use the ITR ECU, that immobilizer is a bitch.
Second mistake. Biggest mistake. You have only 2 wires wired up for the O2 sensor. This means that your heated O2 sensor isn't getting heated. You need the correct type of O2 sensor for that ECU. P28s are 4-wire, so you just need to hook up the rest of the wires. Consult a factory manual.
You'll probably want to upgrade your fuel lines too, I seem to remember that being a problem. You can use pretty much any 95-97 vtec (B16) del sol parts you need to, including mounts, radiator hoses, etc. A B-series is a B-series as far as swaps go. Just be careful that you get parts for the same drive side (right or left hand drive)..
The injection is the same. Don't worry about it.
All OBD1 engines had crank angle, cylinder position, and top dead center sensors. Don't worry about it.
This is your first mistake. You're trying to run a totally different engine with an ECU that was never designed to run it. Get it chipped with at least a EDM P30 program, and get it tuned if you can. It's too bad you can't use the ITR ECU, that immobilizer is a bitch.
Second mistake. Biggest mistake. You have only 2 wires wired up for the O2 sensor. This means that your heated O2 sensor isn't getting heated. You need the correct type of O2 sensor for that ECU. P28s are 4-wire, so you just need to hook up the rest of the wires. Consult a factory manual.
You'll probably want to upgrade your fuel lines too, I seem to remember that being a problem. You can use pretty much any 95-97 vtec (B16) del sol parts you need to, including mounts, radiator hoses, etc. A B-series is a B-series as far as swaps go. Just be careful that you get parts for the same drive side (right or left hand drive)..
The injection is the same. Don't worry about it.
All OBD1 engines had crank angle, cylinder position, and top dead center sensors. Don't worry about it.
i completely forgot to ask if the ecu had been chipped, good looking fabrik8. hey hey i was right about the o2 sensor and the fuel injection, and ive never ran into a problem with swapped cars using the stock fuel line, but i guess it happens. and if i may ask fabrik8, where about's is the crank angle senor on obd1 cars, in the distributor?. cause ive never seen them external like the obd2 motors on all of the cars ive worked on.
11-27-2005, 05:40 PM
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Re: HELP!! -- Swap not going so well!
To be honest I don't remember any more.. I think they are though. I haven't messed with anything but Honda ECUs for a while, and I don't have my factory manual any more.. I mostly messed with OBD2 stuff though, but I had a OBD1 B16 sol, so I could kick myself for not knowing.
11-27-2005, 05:43 PM
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Re: HELP!! -- Swap not going so well!
i was just asking cause out of all the obd1 integra's and civics ive worked on ive never seen an external c.a.s. so i was assuming it was in the distributor.
