http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1563815

Here's the link I'm not seeing the pics on my phone so I'm not 100% sure you can see them either

 

The HardRace rubber bushings appear to be roughly 50% harder than stock. That's fine if that's what you're looking for, and that means they're obviously still soft enough to deflect if they need to. It sounds like most of the mechanical problems with the Energy bushings has to do with some kind of design problem, and I don't remember having personally witnessed anything like that but it's been years since I've done Honda bushing replacement so who knows. Anyway though, it's not that much of a stretch to say that a hard bushing may have problems that stock (or 50% harder than stock) bushings won't have, especially if the problems are based on resistance to deformation. If a soft bushing is what you need to get good life, use a soft bushing and deal with the compliance problems that make the suspension move all over the place.

 

Well I have driven 2 different DC chassis at VIR this year. The first one hit 120ish on the front straight and under hard braking no problem (HardRace). The new car weighs the same wider tires same spring weights and silimar shock valving. This new car with the ES bushings gets up to 130 and the front tires hop like crazy under hard braking. So its my experience that they will never be in another car I own track or street.

 

That doesn't really sound like a bushing problem. That would have to be some incredibly bad binding to make the bushings compete with the spring rate and damping in order to make the tires hop. I'm guessing it's an alignment problem, or that the shocks aren't setup properly.
You've got two probably very different cars, and you're trying to blame the bushings. It could be the bushings, but there are so many other variables that have a much larger effect and are much more likely to be the problem. Different tires, different alignment, different damping, different wheels weights, different brakes, different ride height, different sway bars, different weight distribution, the list goes on and on. Shit, could even be differences in engine braking (and/or the engine mounts) if the engines aren't identical.

My point is that there is most likely a lot more differences between the setup and hardware of two cars than there are similarities, so I'm not sure what kind of conclusions you can actually draw about bushings. I'm still not saying you're wrong, just that you're probably making too big of a leap in logic.

 

I don't care how much Bill Nye science you put into it, the Hardrace bushings are prefered by track rats and are the better bushing kit for tracking. A set of Hardrace bushings will find their way into my car once I feel like having some downtime to install them.

 

Leap in logic? What? I just proved that the es bushing is an inferior design because Hondas bushing ARE muli axis. I also told you that the cars were running the same set up. Alignment, springs and shocks (same valving just a different company did them). Also when I spoke to Chad Slagg (muli time HondaChallenge H1 mid atlantic champ) and Kevin Helms (also a H1 champ, owner of HondaWorks and builder of a pair of TSX's for the 2010 SpeedWorld Challenge). Both asked what bushings I was running when I told him about the chattering under braking. When I told them ES they both said get them off the car. OEM style or sphericals were their only recommendations. Now yes for a street driven car the ES bushing will be fine. The only reason this discussion got down to speaking about the specifics of bushings. Was because you told the op front suspension needing custom parts when that is not the case. Now you have answered questions about other subjects in the past and I'll thank you for that. But, in this case I will respectfully disagree with you.

 

You've got two probably very different cars (Same Honda DC chassis), and you're trying to blame the bushings. It could be the bushings, but there are so many other variables that have a much larger effect and are much more likely to be the problem. Different tire (car chatters with same RA1 compound tire only .5 inch wider), different alignment (same alingment set by same shop and rechecked in my garage using toe plates and a laser level [thank you Bob Endicot for showing me that trick]), different damping (same single aduistable Koni desigen valved to the same valving just done by 2 different companies), different wheels weights (wheel weights are within .2lb), different brakes (brakes are just there to turn forward energy into heat so I dont see how this coulds be a problem also), different ride height (ride height is within 1/4 inch and both cars are corner weighted with crossweights within .5%), different sway bars (when braking in a straight line the swaybays move together thus doing nothing), different weight distribution (answered above with bothe cars being corner weighted), the list goes on and on. Shit, could even be differences in engine braking (and/or the engine mounts) (both feet in so engine is not a factor and same mounts)if the engines aren't identical

you ask we answer

 

Definitely bushings, trailing arm, compensator and compliance especially, I had mugen version of those bushings on my gsr and it was a night and day difference from the stock mush. After that some good tires and driving events, like lots of them .

My experience with poly bushings is similar to vbspec. My car (240sx) was skittish and nervous at the limits with the ES kit, especially under heavy braking and in quick transitions. I talked with some of the guys on the nissan road race forums and swapped everything out for a mix of nismo(hard rubber), back to stock and a few sphericals(rear shock uprights and front tension rods) and the car's limits became VERY approachable, a quiet humming from the tires followed by a very slow slipping and slightly howling tires that was easy to gather back in. The alignment was essentially the same, I just added a little more caster since I had the adjustable tension rods.

 

Everyone got going more technical than I anticipated. I just wish i knew more about this to understand you all. As Im reading more and more I am understanding though. I actually had beed looking at different bushing kits for a while now. and the front of my car is pretty low. Also I wll be getting a camber kit for the front, whats a good camber settng for the front from you alls experiece for a daily driver( my buddy is a road course instructor so I will be taking this with him soon). thanks

 

Who's your buddy I may know him. And for the street I'd go with 2 deg neg up front and 1.5 neg rear. I have the new Skunk2 Pro kit. What ever kit you get make sure there is plenty of lube in the ball joint.