All you, baby. I thoguht about changing it but then I cames to my cencus.

 

I see what you did their.

 

I'm trying to see rock bottom. Let's actual get into another Great Depression, it'll be fun. Anything that breaks their ties with the UAW would be great. Anything for the UAW to be jobless is great in my book.

Of course they are going to give them the money, as much as they want. This whole come up with a plan bullshit is exactly that. The gov't is finally seeing people are pissed with all this bailout going on, they want to show they are doing something more than just handing over big, blank checks.

 

Firstly, I don't anyone thinks they're stupid. People just think they don't know how to manage their companies. There is a lot of evidence to back this up, since they're asking the taxpayers to bail them out.

Secondly, I find it odd that a free market "conservative" like you profess to be would be in favor or having the government help out business. That's not a free market. At all.



It's socialism.


That being said, auto makers should be treated just like the average citizen. If you spend more than you make and can't pay your bills, you can either file for bankruptcy or sell your stuff to someone who can afford them.

That is capitalism.

 

I wholeheartedly agree.

The Big 3s biggest stumbling block is the UAW.

 

I miss you



But seriously, we rode the rollercoaster (our economy) all the way up the hill and now were going down a little faster than we rose. Time for this bitch to hit the bottom of the hill and get it over with so we can start the ride back up. Whatever it is actually going to take to hit rock bottom, let it happen.

 

I agree to some extent... I think a good analogy would be a mountain climber sliding down a snowy face toward a cliff. The climber could just lay back and fall off the cliff and most likely die or, at minimum, be way farther down the mountain and have a lot more ground to cover to catch up and get back to the top of the mountain.

On the other hand... he could use some of his tools (pick ax and cramp-ons (sp?)) to slow his slide and possibly stop it short of falling off the cliff.

The right answer depends on whether or not the climber was on the right path to begin with... if he's on the wrong path to the top and the entrance to that path is off the side of the cliff... well then he needs to fall backwards to move forward in the right direction.

If he's on the correct path then falling all the way down is useless if he can use some of his tools to prevent it.

 

The problem as I see it is that the failure of any one of the big 3 will send us into a deep depression. We're not talking about the failure of just GM, we're talking about the failures of the dealerships and all of the suppliers as well as the contractors that provide services to all of these companies. We're talking about millions of people who will be out of work. That's millions of people who won't be spending. That will trigger even more companies to cut back.

I'm sorry, but I think that the taxpayers are going to foot the bill one way or another. The difference is that if the big 3 can turn it around then at least the government will be able to recover the money. If that money goes towards unemployment and welfare benefits then it won't be recovered.

 

If one of or all of the big 3 run out of cash and declare bankruptcy, they will not go away. In fact if that happens it might be good for the fact they can start getting rid of a lot of the UAW contracts that’s why the UAW knows it’s in their best interest to start re-negotiating now. They just need to learn to drop the ‘ing’ so instead of “willing to negotiate” it will be “we WILL negotiate” This is a reason a lot of the far left (Barney Frank, etc) pro-union democrats want the bailout to go throw. UAW now realizes if these companies re-structure and replant themselves, they’re garun-damn-teed to be far out of the picture and get very little if not anything.

The major problem with these companies is the fact that people aren’t buying cars for two reasons; 1.) they can’t get credit. Cars are in large, purchased on credit. Credit market starts charging high rates or doesn’t provide loans, suddenly driving a 5 year old car isn’t such a bad thing and they don’t have to keep up with the Jones’s. 2nd) provide cars people are actually interested in. GM is talking about going skeleton, a little too bare IMHO. Getting rid of Saturn (OK, kill it, only been in the run for 18 years) but also Pontiac. Hummer, get rid of quick. (Although the H2 for its short life turned a large profit for GM) These companies need to re-tool and need to have the ground entry level car market, the one that Toyota has been gobbling up as they (the big 3) happily made [strike]tanks[/strike] SUV’s guided by the poor decision of upper management.

 

GM made "tanks" because that's what Americans wanted and purchased. GM knows how to make vehicles in markets whre fuel is $6-$8 a gallon over in europe.

Truck/SUV sales only fell in the toilet when gas prices spiked... coupled with the housing market collapse (most use value in their homes to buy expensive stuff). There was a paradigm shift in the market and GM wasn't in the best position for it. It's not like the other mfgs saw it comming and planned for it... they just happened to be in the naturally better position. This is evidenced by the fact that companies like Toyota and Nissan were investing huge amounts of money in truck and suv production to play catchup with the American mfgs domestically. Toyots didn't "see" this comming and stop building the new Tundra... they were trying very hard to claim market-share in the very profitable domesting truck/suv market.

Chapter 11 would be a good thing in most cases, but a car is a unique good... one most people finance and one most people rely on others to service (i.e. warranty). The big questions are, "Will people purchase cars from a technically bankrupt company." and "Will banks loan large sums of money for a car from a mfg that could fail in the near future?" Those are the problems... this is why the companies want to avoid chapter 11. They see chapter 11 as one step on the road to failure anyway.

EDIT: I do agree that they need to do a better job of building exciting entry-level cars to capture the youth market... many people are lifetime buyers. My first car was a Ford Probe GT... it was almost a Honda Accord... I wonder where my interests in cars would lie if I had gotten a Hon-duh first.