Dyno Shop
09-27-2006, 05:15 AM
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09-27-2006, 06:01 PM
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Re: Dyno Shop
I know they are a great shop but I just wanted a second opinion. I've gotten tons of people that say there seems to be something wrong. Believe me, it's not on them because I've done 99% of my modifications.
09-27-2006, 06:21 PM
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Re: Dyno Shop
The numbers were 465/430 with K&N CAI, Magnaflow Cat-back, Magnaflow Catted X-Pipe, Stiegemeier Stage IV Port, AFCO Pro Heat Exchanger, and BF 2.93 w/4 Piece Idler. When I talked with some guys on the SVT page they said that most of them were in the 500+ range on both. The car runs great and the tune is spot on but if this is low then what is the problem? That's why I wanted to see what it is looked like on another dyno...I'm an engineer...design of experiments, eliminate variables(sorry to dork out). Some said maybe a slipping clutch or belt. I don't think there is belt slip but don't know how to tell, same with the clutch.
09-27-2006, 09:02 PM
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Re: Dyno Shop
I'm going to cover all the bases here. Greg is a very good customer of ours and I know he isn't trying to say anything against me or PAS or whatever..he is just curious, but I would like to post a response.
First off, every type of dyno is different. I obviously do not know what dyno's other people are using, but if you want inflated numbers to feel better, head to AED. I have NO direct experiences with AED, but I have SEVERAL customers that have gone to or come from AED with much higher hp numbers then they should have. Like a bone stock C6 Corvette making 389rwhp, that ended up making 349rwhp on our Dynojet. Being that the vehicle is rated at 400 flywheel horsepower you be the judge on who is more accurate. 349 x 15% drivetrain loss = 401hp.
Second, I believe I can't stress this enough to every '03-'04 Cobra owner enough. A hot motor will make a great deal less power then one that has been sitting with ice on the blower for several hours. These people that are making 500/500 could be doing just that, I certainly dont know. When you drive to the dyno and I instantly throw it on, strap it down, and start making preliminary pulls to check the tune it has just about zero cool down time. I can sit and datalog the car and watch it pull timing during all the runs. Anywhere between 3-5 degrees when making boost. There is your 40rwhp. Heat is the enemy. You've already done the necessary heat exchanger upgrade, but there is no way to completely bypass the heat soaking problems a 4.6 4v with an overspun Eaton creates.
If I have a car sitting waiting to get tuned that might have a heat soaking problem I do not rush things. I will make 2-3 intial half pulls to make sure everything is looking good a/f wise and will let it sit and cool down. On the other hand, I do not have this option when you bring your car to us and wait for it. I try to get it tuned and back in your hands as efficently as I can while creating a safe tune that you can deal with everyday. I do not build unsafe tunes that maximize horsepower just for the sake of a cool dyno sheet. Another thing to ask of the 500/500 club is if their graphs are printed in STD format. That seems to be a growing fad of dyno shops. In fact, I beleive your car makes something like 486 in STD form if that make you feel better...but it's a lie.
Third, I have tuned more '03-'04 Cobras then any other type of vehicle since I started working at PAS quite a few years ago. I have no doubts that your car makes what it should safely make. Could someone else get more out of it? Absolutely. I could too, but I wont. I could make you hang around the shop for 4 hours, sit the car outside, buy some bags of ice, force timing into it, and possibly get you to 500rwhp. But thats not how I tune cars, and thats not what I tell customers I will be doing to their $30,000 vehicle.
Fourth, I am not trying to make this sound like I'm defending against someone that is attacking me, because that is most certainly NOT the case. Greg is a very good customer of ours, he was at the shop getting his car retuned for the third time I believe last Tuesday and I beleive he will be back once he decides to go from a 2.93" to a 2.76" pulley, but I do believe he needs to step up his MAF so that I can gain more control over his fuel during the higher rpms. This has been the case for most Cobras over 480rwhp. I am merely stating facts so that there is no confusion.
I tune cars, and thats not rocket surgery. You get the fuel where you want it, and add timing til she stops making power or pings. Simple as that, but when you add in heat and stupid sensors that love to pull timing on their own you start losing the ability to MAKE power on a dyno.
Lastly, your clutch is not slipping. It feels fine on the street and there is ZERO evidence on the dyno that its giving up at any point. Your belt could be slipping, but I saw no obvious evidence of this last Tuesday.
If you are still interested in getting it dyno'd somewhere else, I would also suggest Steen Racing at the beach. I've actually never been to another dyno shop so I cant say anyone is better than anyone else, but we've heard good things from Steen.
If you have any other questions or concerns give me a call or shoot me an email Greg. I appreciate the PM's as well.
Thanks,
-Kevin
First off, every type of dyno is different. I obviously do not know what dyno's other people are using, but if you want inflated numbers to feel better, head to AED. I have NO direct experiences with AED, but I have SEVERAL customers that have gone to or come from AED with much higher hp numbers then they should have. Like a bone stock C6 Corvette making 389rwhp, that ended up making 349rwhp on our Dynojet. Being that the vehicle is rated at 400 flywheel horsepower you be the judge on who is more accurate. 349 x 15% drivetrain loss = 401hp.
Second, I believe I can't stress this enough to every '03-'04 Cobra owner enough. A hot motor will make a great deal less power then one that has been sitting with ice on the blower for several hours. These people that are making 500/500 could be doing just that, I certainly dont know. When you drive to the dyno and I instantly throw it on, strap it down, and start making preliminary pulls to check the tune it has just about zero cool down time. I can sit and datalog the car and watch it pull timing during all the runs. Anywhere between 3-5 degrees when making boost. There is your 40rwhp. Heat is the enemy. You've already done the necessary heat exchanger upgrade, but there is no way to completely bypass the heat soaking problems a 4.6 4v with an overspun Eaton creates.
If I have a car sitting waiting to get tuned that might have a heat soaking problem I do not rush things. I will make 2-3 intial half pulls to make sure everything is looking good a/f wise and will let it sit and cool down. On the other hand, I do not have this option when you bring your car to us and wait for it. I try to get it tuned and back in your hands as efficently as I can while creating a safe tune that you can deal with everyday. I do not build unsafe tunes that maximize horsepower just for the sake of a cool dyno sheet. Another thing to ask of the 500/500 club is if their graphs are printed in STD format. That seems to be a growing fad of dyno shops. In fact, I beleive your car makes something like 486 in STD form if that make you feel better...but it's a lie.
Third, I have tuned more '03-'04 Cobras then any other type of vehicle since I started working at PAS quite a few years ago. I have no doubts that your car makes what it should safely make. Could someone else get more out of it? Absolutely. I could too, but I wont. I could make you hang around the shop for 4 hours, sit the car outside, buy some bags of ice, force timing into it, and possibly get you to 500rwhp. But thats not how I tune cars, and thats not what I tell customers I will be doing to their $30,000 vehicle.
Fourth, I am not trying to make this sound like I'm defending against someone that is attacking me, because that is most certainly NOT the case. Greg is a very good customer of ours, he was at the shop getting his car retuned for the third time I believe last Tuesday and I beleive he will be back once he decides to go from a 2.93" to a 2.76" pulley, but I do believe he needs to step up his MAF so that I can gain more control over his fuel during the higher rpms. This has been the case for most Cobras over 480rwhp. I am merely stating facts so that there is no confusion.
I tune cars, and thats not rocket surgery. You get the fuel where you want it, and add timing til she stops making power or pings. Simple as that, but when you add in heat and stupid sensors that love to pull timing on their own you start losing the ability to MAKE power on a dyno.
Lastly, your clutch is not slipping. It feels fine on the street and there is ZERO evidence on the dyno that its giving up at any point. Your belt could be slipping, but I saw no obvious evidence of this last Tuesday.
If you are still interested in getting it dyno'd somewhere else, I would also suggest Steen Racing at the beach. I've actually never been to another dyno shop so I cant say anyone is better than anyone else, but we've heard good things from Steen.
If you have any other questions or concerns give me a call or shoot me an email Greg. I appreciate the PM's as well.
Thanks,
-Kevin
09-27-2006, 09:23 PM
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Re: Dyno Shop
Here is a full list of every mod done to my car. At the end of the year I'm doing Stage IV port, 60lb injectors, MAFia, KB Boost a Pump, new TB and Plenum and dynotune.
Original Saleen Body Kit, Spoiler, Goodyear Eagle F1's, Saleen Shocks and Struts, Eibach Pro-Kit Springs, 1/4Wheel Spacers with longer reinforced studs, 6000K HID Kit, Chrome Saleen Rims (REAL), SCT chip Dyno Tuned, Brembo Rotors (Cross-Drilled), 2.93 Upper Pulley, Metco 4lb Lower, AFCO Heat Exchanger, Polished C&L Mass Air Meter and Air Intake, Magnaflow Catted X-Pipe, Flowmaster 40 Series Mufflers, Magnaflow Catback w/ 3.5" Dual Center Exhaust, MGW shifter, Autometer Lunar Boost and Air/Fuel Gauges with A-pillar gauge pod, 35% side 20% Back Window, Powdercoated Maximum Motorsports Sub-Frame Connectors, Raptor Shift Light, MGW billet A/C knobs, Mach 1 Grill Delete, BilletFlow 4 Piece Idlers (Black), Billetflow IRS Brace, Steeda IRS Plates, NGK TR6's Gapped at .35., LFP Intercooler Tank (Black w/ Red Cap), Fiore 96-04 Firewall Adj. & Clutch Quadrant Kit