Carbon fibre sources?
06-22-2007, 01:37 PM
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Carbon fibre sources?
I think I've established by now that I don't care about the recent anti-carbon fibre trend. I like it. I've liked carbon fibre since I was about 12 and spent all my money on CF radio control car parts.
The problem I'm having is that it seems like nearly all the carbon fibre parts on the market (honda market) are....well.....shitty. I've got a VIS carbon fibre hood on the car. The weave is ok, but it (like everything else I've found) has a super thick layer of gel coat/clear coat on it. It weighs nearly as much as a stock hood, and the clear will crack if any pressure is put on the hood. It doesn't fit worth a rat's shit either.
I've got the same issues with the spoiler on the back too. SUPER thick clear coat, not very light, and fit's worth a shit. The weave isn't great on the spoiler either. It's a Seibon piece. And neither the hood or the spoiler are strong....at all.
My question is just regarding if anybody out there makes high quality carbon fibre parts for Hondas. I'm not looking for super high gloss show car stuff. I know high quality carbon parts are more expensive, but this VIS and Seibon stuff is crap.
The problem I'm having is that it seems like nearly all the carbon fibre parts on the market (honda market) are....well.....shitty. I've got a VIS carbon fibre hood on the car. The weave is ok, but it (like everything else I've found) has a super thick layer of gel coat/clear coat on it. It weighs nearly as much as a stock hood, and the clear will crack if any pressure is put on the hood. It doesn't fit worth a rat's shit either.
I've got the same issues with the spoiler on the back too. SUPER thick clear coat, not very light, and fit's worth a shit. The weave isn't great on the spoiler either. It's a Seibon piece. And neither the hood or the spoiler are strong....at all.
My question is just regarding if anybody out there makes high quality carbon fibre parts for Hondas. I'm not looking for super high gloss show car stuff. I know high quality carbon parts are more expensive, but this VIS and Seibon stuff is crap.
06-22-2007, 03:01 PM
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Re: Carbon fibre sources?
This is one of my favorite topics that piss me off. And someone else brought it up.. So I'll put down my beer (I'm still at work) and join the rant.
Everyone wants the really deep, high gloss parts. I'm with you on that, I hate the gloppy thick gel coated shit. Super thick clear coat aside, the quality of the Vis and Seibon stuff isn't super bad, but the fit tends to be crap like you said. Your best bet is to contact one of the companies and see if they can make you a gelcoat-free part.
The other option is to get someone to make a mold off of your stock parts, and make a one-off hood. I've done that a few times, and it's gonna cost ya because of the quantities involved. Iv'e seen people (like myself) on some of the Honda, Suby, etc., forums that do small batch really good stuff, for a more hefty price than the mass production places.
It's really not hard to make a really good fitting hood, it just takes a good mold that's well reinforced, and good materials (epoxy, etc) that don't shrink when they cure. Accurate trimming is very crucial too, and the big companies apparently don't have the time to spend making everything accurate. This is very critical when starting with a part that will be "edge wrapped" (barf) because you're starting with a pre-trimmed part and then wrapping over the trimmed edge. But honestly, you get what you pay for, which isn't much in the world of mass produced carbon parts.
By the way, just to continue my rambling diatribe.. The reason that your carbon parts aren't strong is that they are duplicates of the sheet metal parts, but made in carbon. Carbon reinforced composites can't be made like sheet metal parts, and you'll hear the phrase "black metal syndrome" to describe that. You'll notice that real carbon parts don't have that problem. To compound the problem, most "carbon" parts are mostly fiberglass with a single skin of carbon for cosmetics (one side, sometimes two, that's why you see "double sided" thrown around in marketing garbage) so you don't get the strength that you could.
The unsupported/unreinforced resin and gelcoat doesn't help either, it adds a little stiffness but no strength. It does add a bit of weight too; I've seen hoods with thicker gelcoat than the actual reinforced laminate! The one good thing is that if you chip or gauge the gelcoat, you don't usually hurt the fibers underneath. Non-gecoated carbon parts are a lot more fragile and sensitive to scratches obviously.
There is also a reason most real carbon parts are painted, they aren't cosmetically perfect, and often have seams showing because the fibers are oriented the right way (or ways) so it isn't as pretty. Nice, ugly carbon/Kevlar and carbon/fiberglass weaves are common too; or unidirectional carbon (with no weave), none of which are very pretty. If you need proof, look at the price difference between a painted Pagani Zonda and a 'naked carbon' Zonda, it takes a lot of effort/money to make a composite part look good and be uncompromisingly functional.
My big kick right now is matte finish carbon, I'm over the gloss look. I want no gelcoat and no gloss. See Jay's gauge pod for more details. It's pretty difficult to make one-off real carbon parts look good, keep that in mind. It usually takes a few to get the kinks worked out.
So you want actual, REAL carbon parts, and I like you for that.
I've heard mixed things about Benin (I think that's the brand name) parts, you might try looking there in your quest for higher quality. Tap on Jay's sunroof next time you see his car, it sounds like a piece of plate glass. You can have what you want, it's just not easy to get sometimes.
Everyone wants the really deep, high gloss parts. I'm with you on that, I hate the gloppy thick gel coated shit. Super thick clear coat aside, the quality of the Vis and Seibon stuff isn't super bad, but the fit tends to be crap like you said. Your best bet is to contact one of the companies and see if they can make you a gelcoat-free part.
The other option is to get someone to make a mold off of your stock parts, and make a one-off hood. I've done that a few times, and it's gonna cost ya because of the quantities involved. Iv'e seen people (like myself) on some of the Honda, Suby, etc., forums that do small batch really good stuff, for a more hefty price than the mass production places.
It's really not hard to make a really good fitting hood, it just takes a good mold that's well reinforced, and good materials (epoxy, etc) that don't shrink when they cure. Accurate trimming is very crucial too, and the big companies apparently don't have the time to spend making everything accurate. This is very critical when starting with a part that will be "edge wrapped" (barf) because you're starting with a pre-trimmed part and then wrapping over the trimmed edge. But honestly, you get what you pay for, which isn't much in the world of mass produced carbon parts.
By the way, just to continue my rambling diatribe.. The reason that your carbon parts aren't strong is that they are duplicates of the sheet metal parts, but made in carbon. Carbon reinforced composites can't be made like sheet metal parts, and you'll hear the phrase "black metal syndrome" to describe that. You'll notice that real carbon parts don't have that problem. To compound the problem, most "carbon" parts are mostly fiberglass with a single skin of carbon for cosmetics (one side, sometimes two, that's why you see "double sided" thrown around in marketing garbage) so you don't get the strength that you could.
The unsupported/unreinforced resin and gelcoat doesn't help either, it adds a little stiffness but no strength. It does add a bit of weight too; I've seen hoods with thicker gelcoat than the actual reinforced laminate! The one good thing is that if you chip or gauge the gelcoat, you don't usually hurt the fibers underneath. Non-gecoated carbon parts are a lot more fragile and sensitive to scratches obviously.
There is also a reason most real carbon parts are painted, they aren't cosmetically perfect, and often have seams showing because the fibers are oriented the right way (or ways) so it isn't as pretty. Nice, ugly carbon/Kevlar and carbon/fiberglass weaves are common too; or unidirectional carbon (with no weave), none of which are very pretty. If you need proof, look at the price difference between a painted Pagani Zonda and a 'naked carbon' Zonda, it takes a lot of effort/money to make a composite part look good and be uncompromisingly functional.
My big kick right now is matte finish carbon, I'm over the gloss look. I want no gelcoat and no gloss. See Jay's gauge pod for more details. It's pretty difficult to make one-off real carbon parts look good, keep that in mind. It usually takes a few to get the kinks worked out.
So you want actual, REAL carbon parts, and I like you for that.
I've heard mixed things about Benin (I think that's the brand name) parts, you might try looking there in your quest for higher quality. Tap on Jay's sunroof next time you see his car, it sounds like a piece of plate glass. You can have what you want, it's just not easy to get sometimes.
Last edited by Fabrik8; 06-22-2007 at 03:14 PM.
06-22-2007, 03:19 PM
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Re: Carbon fibre sources?
Well, it's going to be a year at least before I see Jay's car (if he doesn't sell it) so that's kind of out for now.
But to reinforce my position...
I'm absolutely over shiney carbon fiber parts. I know the construction and I know all the bullshit marketing tools these mainstream CF companies use and I understand to a much greater depth the basics of CF than most people do. I just find it incredibly frustrating that all the CF stuff on the market (For Hondas) is crap.
Carbon fibre is supposed to be functional, not pretty. And for that very reason, I find it pretty.
It just gets me going every now and then. My father sends me pictures of his Formula 1 airplane and the use of carbon blows me away. Carbon fibre, knife edged, wings.... Single strand CF propeller...etc.
And then I look at the crap that's oon my car and it pisses me off. I'd like to find someone back on the east coast when I get back that knows how to work with CF and make a couple small runs of common parts. I have a feeling that's the only way I'm going to get a quality part.
But to reinforce my position...
I'm absolutely over shiney carbon fiber parts. I know the construction and I know all the bullshit marketing tools these mainstream CF companies use and I understand to a much greater depth the basics of CF than most people do. I just find it incredibly frustrating that all the CF stuff on the market (For Hondas) is crap.
Carbon fibre is supposed to be functional, not pretty. And for that very reason, I find it pretty.
It just gets me going every now and then. My father sends me pictures of his Formula 1 airplane and the use of carbon blows me away. Carbon fibre, knife edged, wings.... Single strand CF propeller...etc.
And then I look at the crap that's oon my car and it pisses me off. I'd like to find someone back on the east coast when I get back that knows how to work with CF and make a couple small runs of common parts. I have a feeling that's the only way I'm going to get a quality part.
06-22-2007, 05:19 PM
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Re: Carbon fibre sources?
Filament wound propeller? F'n cool. Many of the windmill and helicopter blades are filament wound now too..
Just to make you jealous:
My (Our) whole chassis happens to be made of carbon. Well, except for the roll hoop. It's all (donated) aerospace prepreg carbon too, not a drop of wet resin was used on the car.. Vacuum bagging and oven cure for everything. Carbon differential case too, visible right under the brake light. You can play catch with the chassis tub, it's 45 pounds bare. And yes, those are magnesium BBS wheels, the only set that size in the country..
Just to make you jealous:
My (Our) whole chassis happens to be made of carbon. Well, except for the roll hoop. It's all (donated) aerospace prepreg carbon too, not a drop of wet resin was used on the car.. Vacuum bagging and oven cure for everything. Carbon differential case too, visible right under the brake light. You can play catch with the chassis tub, it's 45 pounds bare. And yes, those are magnesium BBS wheels, the only set that size in the country..
Last edited by Fabrik8; 06-22-2007 at 05:24 PM.
06-22-2007, 05:31 PM
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Re: Carbon fibre sources?
Yeah all of the parts on dad's airplane are one off dry carbon pieces too. It's a pretty intence little plane. All the surfaces are CAD designed and then tested and tweaked in a NASA wind tunnel. It's all painted (aside from the prop) so the common person's perspective wouldn't be all that amazing. I think you'd get a kick out of it.
And I'm suprememly jealous of that project up there. I'd sell a nut for a chance to work with something like that. I hope you really appreciate the field you're in.
And I'm suprememly jealous of that project up there. I'd sell a nut for a chance to work with something like that. I hope you really appreciate the field you're in.
06-22-2007, 05:56 PM
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Re: Carbon fibre sources?
im really getting tired of seeing shitty carbon fiber parts aswell, i say you start your own buisness(the two serious responses) and make really nice carbon fiber parts
06-22-2007, 06:08 PM
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Re: Carbon fibre sources?
I'd love to. I think I'm going to try dabbling in it a bit when I get back, but without someone with experiance, it's going to be kind of hard to make a proper, high quality product. Plus, simply "dabbling" in CF would get pretty expensive. We'll see though.
06-22-2007, 07:14 PM
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Re: Carbon fibre sources?
Most of the battle is learning as much as you can before you start. Just like anything else, it's amazing how much better you can do if you start with a good working knowledge.
06-22-2007, 07:16 PM
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Re: Carbon fibre sources?
Yeah all of the parts on dad's airplane are one off dry carbon pieces too. It's a pretty intence little plane. All the surfaces are CAD designed and then tested and tweaked in a NASA wind tunnel. It's all painted (aside from the prop) so the common person's perspective wouldn't be all that amazing. I think you'd get a kick out of it.
And I'm suprememly jealous of that project up there. I'd sell a nut for a chance to work with something like that. I hope you really appreciate the field you're in.
And I'm suprememly jealous of that project up there. I'd sell a nut for a chance to work with something like that. I hope you really appreciate the field you're in.
Last edited by Fabrik8; 06-22-2007 at 07:21 PM.
