cardana24

Hey guys,
I ran into a problem last night that I have not come across. The car is an 03 Kia Spectra non abs. My dad told me the car had spongy brakes, so we attempted to bleed them. I cracked the right rear bleeder open while he was pushing down on the pedal and some fluid came out, so we did the procedure a few more times. Then no fluid was coming out and the pedal was hard while the bleeder was open. So I switched to the left rear...same thing, a little bit of fluid the first few times then not much of anything and the pedal was hard even with the line open. *rears are drum brakes* So I moved the front (disc), and had the same results up front. But while up front if I left the bleeder open and we kept pressure on the brake pedal a little fluid would shoot out and then it would get hard again before the pedal got to the floor. Then I was out of time so I left. Anyway, the car is a 5 speed and the master cylinder goes to the clutch slave and the brakes. The clutch is working the way it should. Then after that there is really not much to it, the proportioning valve and then lines running to each corner. My next step was going to be taking one bleeder all the way out to just see if the fluid is so nice it will not come out of the little holes on the bleeders. I don't know any history on the car other than we bought it non running. Has anyone ever encountered this?

Fabrik8

The clutch is on the same master cylinder? So if you press the brakes the clutch is actuated, and if you press the clutch pedal the brakes are actuated? Think about what you're saying, I think you're confused. There might be a booster that assists both of them, but there will be separate cylinders for the clutch and brakes.

It sounds like you've got debris or some sludge from incompatible fluid blocking the lines. The fact that it does it on all 4 corners could tell you everything, or nothing (helpful, I know). If it's a debris problem, it would be very unlikely to happen at all of the corners the same way, so it is likely at the master cylinder. If it's a fluid sludge problem, it could be in multiple lines/calipers at the same time, etc. I'm guessing it's a master cylinder problem.

So you were doing the standard procedure of:

Push pedal
Open bleeder
Bleed fluid
Close bleeder
Release pedal

???


Oh, actually I think I have an better idea. I bet you're triggering a safety valve (dual piston) because you're not bleeding them correctly. On some cars, if you have a failed (leaky/open) caliper the master cylinder will slide a secondary piston to divert fluid to the working caliper and bypass the non-working fluid circuit. Once the piston moves enough fluid and slides all the way to the other outlet port, the pedal will firm back up because you now have brake pressure on the working calipers. If you leave it alone, I think there is a return spring that will start to bypass fluid and return the piston toward the original position. So carefully examine how you're bleeding the brakes, because I think you're making that happen. You'll likely need to change amount of fluid that you're bleeding, and move around from corner to corner more. That would only work if you can verify that you have a master cylinder like that, and it is causing what's actually happening though.

You might also be causing the same type of behavior in the combination valve; you probably have one because it's a non-ABS car with drum brakes. Combo valves usually have the same type of sliding piston function built into them. The combo valve would only affect the rears though.

This is tough for me because I don't ever deal with drum brake cars, or street cars without factory ABS. The only non-ABS cars I work on are race cars. And never KIAs...



Also, KIA made cars without ABS in 2003? Wow. That's funny.

cardana24

Yeah, that was a bad description, they share a reservoir. The reason I mentioned this before was because my dad was having an issue with the slave cylinder rod going back into the cylinder (it was removed when I put another engine in the car) so I told him to crack the bleeder and push it back in, and when he did that plenty of fluid ran out so we had the bleed the clutch line. If it's a debris problem I was hoping that taking a bleeder screw all the way out could possibly clear that up. I only had 15 minutes to spare yesterday when working on this so I really was not able to do any trouble shooting. But when I have dealt with failing brake master cylinders they have always done the opposite, not able to hold pressure or generate the proper pressure.

Fabrik8

Read my edits, I added a lot.

cardana24

Yes, I am trying to bleed them in the way you described. I'll need to double check the abs thing, I just assumed since it is a base model and abs was an option that year it did not have it, I did not even look for an abs distribution block in the engine bay.

If the car does have a combination valve in the master cylinder how are you supposed to bleed them (I'll google this too)? I have never dealt with this before.

Fabrik8

Just limit the amount of fluid out of each wheel before moving to the next one, or don't fully open the bleeder to kept the pressure higher. You're trying to not move the secondary piston enough that it closes the low pressure (open bleeder) port off. If you limit the amount of fluid, the piston won't move very much. I'm trying to visualize how those systems work and it's a little fuzzy.

There should be a really easy way to get around the problem though, if its the piston system I'm talking about.

Yardjass

Get it bled to freshen up the fluid like fabrik8 said. I don't think that's going to solve your issue though. I'm guessing it has spongy brakes because it's an 03 Kia Spectra and it rolled off the assembly line that way.

Fabrik8

They probably use the same components from the same manufacturers as everyone else did in the early '90s on base model cars with drum brakes, so shouldn't be too bad. Generic brake parts for low-end applications are made by the millions using the same tooling for decades. Worst case for the age of the car there are likely leaky calipers and cracked dust boots on the caliper pistons, and a lot of grime packed in everywhere.

And it probably hasn't had fresh fluid in a really long time... If you can't remember the last fluid change, you're way overdue.

cardana24

There is a lot of truth in that. I had an engine/trans laying around and I was looking for a car to put it into. This car popped up...and here we are.

I'll try what you recommended when I have a little bit more time. I have no clue when the fluid was changed, by the looks of what came out it may have never been changed. It's a real gem.

BAN HAMMER

take it to a dealer, pay the $89 and let them bleed it. It's way less headache.