FairladyZTT

so... just out of curiousity... would the actual fuel have any effect on the actual injection systems?

I have a 300ZX and the older style injectors all seemed to take a shit as soon as they switched to E10. Even people that were buying new injectors were coming across them failing. The only cure seemed to be, to buy the new pintle style... they dont seem to fail. Could this be caused by the water content said to be in E10?

So... for all you science guys... could this be caused by the Ethenol or just the fact that they were probably some old ass injectors?

marlinspike

The fun part is the emissions are worse.

rtcarlin

I don't know anything about the OP's car... But if it is a 20+ year old motor, and he beats the crap out of it (as most of us on here do), then I do agree that the ethanol mix isn't helping his performance...

I'm not a chemist.... I'm not a engineer... I have been racing and playing with cars for quite a few years. Ethanol and "old school" unleaded gasoline are NOT the same. which is why you can't run E85 in a non-E85 vehicle and expect things to go well. New motors are built to handle the added 10-15% content. Some are built to handle the E85 stuff. I know my car does not run as well on 93 w/ 10% ethanol as it does on non-ethanol 93. But then again, my motor was designed over 20 years ago and ethanol wasn't even a consideration....

All I'm saying is there IS a difference in the two. The difference isn't normally evident, but as you start making more power, your weak points begin to show. At some point, the mixed fuel becomes a weak link, if you're not built to properly utilize it. There's no Ethanol used in racing fuels for a reason....

Just my .02.....

3Point5SE

I think theirs one place in Franklin... but i dont know where, i don't even know the name of it... I just listen to the grape vine.

Impulsed7

ethanol is alcohol, which will have an effect on a lot of older makes fuel systems.

early e36 bmw's will shit injectors and pumps more frequently. I've heard of some makes having fuel lines eaten up, but who knows...

Fabrik8

It's possible that the ethanol is loosening up deposits in the fuel system somewhere and clogging the injectors, or there is something that is getting dissolved. Other than that I can't see anything that would make them fail. If people are using new injectors, and they're failing too, I would say that it isn't the fault of the injectors but something external to the injectors that is causing the problem. The injector failure is probably just collateral damage.


Ethanol is used as a race fuel.

IRL uses it, as do a few other race series. The very high octane rating works great for making big power, and it's good for marketing. They were using methanol. Sure, you have to use quite a bit more than with straight gasoline, but that's not really an issue for racing, and the engines are largely designed around the fuel.

The fact that your car may not run as well on E10 as it does on non-blended gas is mostly down to the engine management and not the engine. In fact, prety much everything you said has to do with the engine management.

The engine doesn't care what you feed it as long as it is within its designed efficiency range, and adding 10% ethanol doesn't have that great of an effect. But, if the engine management isn't able to compensate for that, you might have a small loss of power. Some of that is the O2 sensor type, some of that is the engine management strategy. The "Flex Fuel" engines have different O2 sensors and larger injectors, and a fuel composition sensor to detect the amount of ethanol. The engine management strategy is different to be able to properly use anything from 0% ethanol to almost 100% ethanol, but it's all just sensors and tuning changes.

It could be much worse; if you have a carb'd car, the carb would have to be retuned for the new fuel because of the difference in energy density per volume. You'd be running lean with E10 because the stoich difference.

J3sse

more and more boosted race cars are starting to scrap race fuels and going e85. here is a short write up and gains from it.

http://web.mac.com/gates311/2008_Rac...E85_Power.html


/subscribed for the honda related comments

kevsz32

yep...thats why our older style injectors fail..because of the ethanol. like i said. back in the day when our cars came out..this wasnt an issue.

StreetEvo

J3sse, that link really isn't a good showing of the difference in race gas and e85. They compare numbers on 4 different setups. Doesn't really show anything other than the power one setup made over the other. There are entirely too many variables. The second graph they show a 750R kit on e85 vs a FP Red on race gas, you really can't compare fuel types when you swap a turbo, injectors and a tune out as well. People switch to e85 in boosted applications because it: is ~105 octane, acts as chemical cooling for the air charge, and has a higher knock resistance than most gasoline-based race fuels. Cost also comes into play when switching from race fuel to e85. Locally, Sunoco on Indian River sells leaded 110 for about $6.30 a gallon, whereas e85 sold at Oceana is normally less than a gallon of regular gas.

FairladyZTT

yea... that is what everybody said.. but I wasn't sure if... it just started happening and somebody said "Hey.. it must the Ethenol". or if somebody actually figured out what the problem was.

Just figured I would throw it out there.